Toxic Positivity: When Smiles Become a Weapon

Lars Nielsen (00:04.126) Welcome back to Cultures from Hell. The podcast where we shine a light on the darker corners of workplace dynamics and equip you with the tools to build healthier environments. I'm your host Lars and today we are tackling a seemingly innocuous but incredible damaging phenomenon. Toxic positivity. And we have all encounter it, the relentless insistence of a positive outlook, even in the face of genuine struggle. But what happens when good vibes only becomes a weapon? They miss with this. my God, this missing. Is it just this missing? Paulina (00:55.015) second Lars Nielsen (00:56.76) Yeah, is. Okay, why couldn't I pronounce that? Okay, we're gonna try again. Like always, we have to do fuck-ups. And I'm gonna cut that word out. Welcome back to Cultures from Hell. The podcast where we shine a light on the darker corners of workplace dynamics and equip you with the tools to build healthier environments. I'm your host Lars, and today we are tackling a seemingly innocuous but incredible damaging phenomenon, toxic positivity. And we have all encountered it. The relentless insistence Lars Nielsen (01:49.87) of a positive outlook even in the face of genuine struggle. But what happens when good vibes only becomes a webbing, dismissing real emotions and breeding resentment? And to dive deep into this, I am as always thrilled to be joined by my brilliant co-host and a true expert in company culture, Paulina, co-founder of Culture Code Foundation. Pauline, thanks for being here. Paulina (02:20.892) Hey Lars, as always, thank you for having me. Lars Nielsen (02:24.374) Yeah, this is that we are recording on Fridays, right? This is the best way to end the week. Paulina (02:30.472) I agree. I feel the same way. It's such a passion topic and just to see you every week and to talk about super important topics and really diving into the weeds of a company culture is so much fun for me. Lars Nielsen (02:47.854) And I love it. like one thing I get to see every week, which we haven't done earlier. And just to be transparent, we have known each other for a lot of years now. But the second thing is like, you're the expert here. I'm doing in quantization mark, just the host. And I'm learning so much from these podcasts. So for everybody out there listening, if this is your first listen, then go back and listen to all of them because you are just going to be so filled with knowledge that you can take back to your workplace and have a positive impact. Paulina (03:26.824) Thank you so much, Lars. That's amazing. Amazing feedback by you learning something from this as well. I love that. Lars Nielsen (03:34.04) Paulina, toxic positivity sounds almost like a oxymoron. Can you start by defining what it is and perhaps share a common scenario where it rears its head in a professional setting? Paulina (03:50.994) Yes, happy to. So toxic positivity, positivity is what happens when we treat positivity, not as a mindset, but as a requirement. Like there's only one right emotional state allowed at work. You have to be cheerful. You have to be upbeat. You have to be motivated and everything else gets suppressed, denied, or sanitized. And what that would show up in real life or in a real life scenario is for example, if a team hits a painful setback, let's say for example, they worked on delivering a new product feature for months on end. And then the C level decides just to can that product feature. And instead of giving them space to process the frustration and the demotivation, their leader then would say, let's just be grateful for the learning. And boom, that is dismissal disguised as inspiration or motivation, right? And I've personally experienced cultures like that, both as an employee, but also from the outside perspective. And if you live inside that kind of culture, it feels infantilizing. Like we weren't treated as adults with real concerns like our... opinions didn't matter or weren't even heard. And to be completely honest here, I actually contributed to such a toxic positivity scheme pretty early on in my career. Because I was told to hold the company line. Paulina (05:55.26) And I did because I was a young manager and I thought this is just how you do it. And every leadership training told me you need to be inspirational as a leader. You need to be motivational. You need to, yeah, make sure that everyone is, is motivated all the time. The thing is, I didn't feel it. I didn't believe in it. And I think I've said this before, people smell inauthenticity from miles and miles away. So obviously they smelled my own inauthenticity as well because they knew that I didn't believe it. And then they stopped trusting me and they stopped talking to me. And that's where it became really difficult because that's when it's getting harder and harder to get them back on the train. Lars Nielsen (06:47.534) But can it also be a... Because listen to what you're saying, right? And I can imagine that I have also been guilty of doing this earlier in my career. But when I think about it, I also can see it as a really hard line to walk. Because again, like you're saying, if you are a leader, you want to stay positive, you want to... Create that energy and get people to look at the positive things on everything. And I'm guilty of that in my relationship and my girlfriend is as well. When we sometimes say like, I'm sorry to hear that, but there's a learning in this, right? And then you do it, you do it not out of spite or being a bad person. Yeah, I don't know. Am I off here or? Paulina (07:20.605) Hmm? Paulina (07:34.087) Yes. Paulina (07:42.502) No, you're absolutely spot on because I think a lot of people actually do this not just because they need to hold the company line, but because they really want to help and they want to make people feel good. Right? So this is not necessarily something that comes from a bad place. The thing is that people need space to process disappointment and frustration. I'll talk about this later, but if you don't have that kind of space, that's where it becomes really difficult. And if you're being inauthentic about it, that's when it becomes difficult. Lars Nielsen (08:24.431) What are some of the immediate and longer-term impacts you have observed on individuals and team morale? Paulina (08:32.486) Yeah. So clearly for me, the immediate impact is silence. People will stop speaking up, not because they will not utter their pains anymore. They will not speak about what frustrates them. Not, and then a lot of managers might think this is because everything's fine and they've actually succeeded in uplifting the mood. But in reality, people have actually learned that Only certain emotions are allowed in the room and they hold back parts of themselves and they hold part, hold back parts of their truth and also their concerns. Right. And that is also difficult because concerns can be extremely valid and can be very, very important warning signs that can see from, from your course of success and As a leader, you don't necessarily have the full picture all the time. And if your people don't share their concerns anymore, you can't take those into consideration plan for plan for an exit route or, or an alternative route anymore. Right. So you're actually shaving off opportunity to do things better. If you, if, if you shut this down, right. And that's also why long-term, if that. This toxic positivity goes on and on and on. You get what I call the crack, cracked glass culture, which looks polished from the outside, but internally there's microcracks everywhere. And that can show up in passive disengagement. You can see resentment, mask as politeness and the avoidance of real sleep back. And ironically, the more you demand positivity, the less resilient the team becomes. And resilience is something that everyone, especially in those, in these really, really difficult times that we're seeing out there at the moment, resilience is such an important quality in, in people, not just as employees, but as persons, right? And with this Paulina (10:53.638) I mean, I'm also not a big fan of painting everything black, right? I hate that as well. This is the other side of the coin, resilience starts in, comes from acknowledging pain, acknowledging failure and finding ways to overcome this. And if you don't have that space to process any of that, you can't build this resilience because can't build it by pretending things are fine. It's built by moving through discomfort together with honesty. So yeah, you're basically stripping people of a very important quality and yourself of important warning systems. I would say. Lars Nielsen (11:43.374) And if somebody is sitting out there right now, they are maybe at work when they're listening to this podcast even, and they want to like, let's say, look out for signs of toxic positivity. Can you give us like three crucial things that... someone or this person should look out for when identifying TOSO positivity in their own workplace. Paulina (12:14.438) Yeah. I mean, to be fair, I think everyone who's experiencing toxic positivity already knows because it usually comes along with this inauthenticity that people register really, really well, but let me drill it down anyway. the toxic trio I see most often is good vibes only language and meanings. So if dissent or doubt is constantly reframed as not being a team player, that's when you're in trouble. Then I see surface level check-ins like, how's everyone feeling today? Great, great. yeah. So those moments when nobody really dares to say that they are angry, tired, lost or whatnot. And then the third thing. And that's probably not as obvious as the other two, but I call it premature solutioning. So anytime someone raises a problem, then leadership will jump in straight to let's not dwell on the negative. Let's just focus on the solution. And by that, again, you're short-cutting the emotional processing. And if therefore, if you're seeing those signs there, The chances are that you're not in a psychologically safe environment. You are in what I, let me coin it as performance of happiness and performance not in the sense of theater act, right? Lars Nielsen (13:55.639) I love that phrase. Lars Nielsen (14:00.204) Yeah. I love that term, the toxic trio. I'm going to pin that one in my memory. Okay. Early on in the beginning of the podcast, said you yourself have been like the outlet of toxic positivity. Can you share a time when you witnessed a shift from a Paulina (14:11.318) you Lars Nielsen (14:29.932) toxic calorie, positive environment to one that embraced a wider emotional range. Paulina (14:38.47) Yeah, I guess I'm sharing here, sharing a lot of my personal moments here. so while I can't speak to a full company transformation on this topic, I have seen in one of the teams that I actually let myself moments of emotional honesty, cracking things wide open. So I took over a team that was led by a posit by, by such a positivity hacker who would always, who would not listen to like. Lars Nielsen (14:42.35) you Paulina (15:07.706) anything negative, who would just frame everything as, what an amazing, what not. And powerful tool that I use a lot is what I personally call the Hulk meeting. And that is exactly what it sounds like. A space where people can go to rant, like bitch, moan, scream into the void if they need it, like really open up. authentically, no, no BS, no filters, nothing. And the only rule in the, in the meeting is get it all out. And once everyone has shared everything that's really frustrating them and Lars, I know you've been there. I know you've been in situations where you were like, the product sucks. sales approach sucks. the customers suck. The Salesforce hygiene sucks. The admin tasks suck, right? And the way we negotiate sucks and the competition sucks and everything's just, you just want to jump out of your own skin. And so this meeting opens up the space to really put all of this on the table and gives you space and leeway to actually process all of that. together as well, right? So you don't just, this tool doesn't just open up space to process the emotion, it also brings the team much closer together because you share this emotional experience. And that, but the important thing here is not only to have this space and that's exactly what you mentioned before, right? From your relationship. now they've had the space to process things and now it's time to look on the positive side of things, but now it's not toxic positivity. is actually shifting to what is actually in our control. What can we change? Where do we have agency? What can we influence? Paulina (17:19.472) And that combo, the venting and the agency and getting back into the driver's seat, that is magic. the challenge here is that leaders need to hold space without fixing. So, and that's really, really, really hard because it's in our DNA to jump in and to start offering solutions or help fixing things. And that's not what this is about. First part of the meeting, vent, just let them scream into the void. And the second part of the meeting have the team develop. ideas and solutions and just about the things that they can actually control. Because the emotions aren't mess that you need to clean up. They are actually data. And if you don't listen to the data, you'll miss the system failure that's coming. And So you say, hard into what is said, because obviously you as a leader also have the job to afterwards talk to other stakeholders and try to fix things or to make things better. Because that you usually as a leader have more, Levers within the company to change things. But at the same time, your team needs to be, to feel responsible and able to change things on their own. And that's. So that's like the tryptocont, right? Venting, have them create solutions for the things that they can influence. And then in the background, try to fix other things that they don't necessarily know about that you're fixing that until you fix that, then please go collect the kudos. Yeah, I would say that's an incredibly powerful tool. Lars Nielsen (19:12.142) you Lars Nielsen (19:20.2) You just made me look at a, no, let me rephrase that. I would say that me as a leader and hopefully also as a partner to my girlfriend, that I'm very like good at taking feedback and just letting people vent out. But you just said something, especially in a professional context. Paulina (19:41.916) Hmm. Lars Nielsen (19:46.978) That's going to make me look at this in a whole different way. And that's a very positive way. That's when you're saying that data, you and I, come from a software background in terms of sales and we know data is so crucial for making the right decisions. So for me, just hearing you say that kind of let it just changed my whole perspective saying like, that's data. I need that. I love that. Thank you very much. Paulina (20:00.584) you Paulina (20:13.544) That's wonderful. you're more than welcome. Lars Nielsen (20:18.326) Let's the podcast here. have done. So let me turn it around a little bit, Pauline, here. So if someone is sitting out there like, and saying like, I want to deliberately create a culture of toxic positivity, what would you advise them to do to ensure they fail at fostering genuine connection and emotional honesty? Paulina (20:46.416) I love this segment of our podcast. Where we're being as sarcastic as we possibly can be. Maybe this is positive, toxic positivity. I'm not sure. Lars Nielsen (20:48.215) You Lars Nielsen (20:53.629) yeah. Paulina (21:02.676) but okay, let's give you three things that you can do to, yeah, really instill this positive, toxic positivity into your team today. It doesn't take long. So you can start every meeting with let's keep things light today instead of really asking for anything real. then you can praise people only when they're cheerful. Never when they are candid. And you can also call every single conflict a misunderstanding in quotation marks and insist that everyone hack it out before lunch. I think that should do the trick. what else? and make sure your value posters say things like we are always positive or there's no room for negativity here. If you do that. I will guarantee you that people will stop telling you the truth and then you're just decorating the walls whilst the foundation cracks. Lars Nielsen (22:13.666) We have seen that before. Paulina (22:16.018) Didn't we? Lars Nielsen (22:18.414) And so, what's the single most important thing or important action a leader can take to encourage authentic emotional expression within the team? Because I would imagine that that is, that is a really hard thing. I've seen, or I would say like almost all leaders that I've encountered and that includes you Pauline. One of the first times you meet them, they all say like, hey, anything you want to share, just come with me. I can take it. I want to hear everything and so on. And some mean it and some might not mean it as much. So what can I, what action can a leader take to make sure that people are actually comfortable doing it? Paulina (23:10.14) I think the most important thing is model emotional range yourself. That's basically it, right? If your team never sees you frustrated, reflective, unsure, they assume that those emotions aren't allowed. But if you can honestly and authentically say, this situation frustrates me. exactly like it frustrates you or doesn't have, doesn't even have to have this connection. So this, this situation is really frustrating for me. And here's how I'm managing that. That actually gives the permission to bring the full selves to the table. And it's not about oversharing or turning a team meeting into a therapy session. It's about normalizing emotions as part of work. I've had a situation with my former manager who I admire a lot. And we, we as a company ran into a situation that was really, really difficult to deal with. And he was very much focused on the positive side of things. And I could only see the negative sides of it. And I was really struggling with being in that negative mindset myself, and having to try to sell this as positive in any form way or, or another to my team. And I was extremely, actually, I think it was you who called me out on that. he's like, Pauline, you have to be honest with them. You have to, you have to tell them how much it pains you. And then I spoke to my manager and. I told him, I need to hear from you as well, that there are things about this situation that are difficult for you. And we actually then developed communication into the entire company together. He was much more rational than I was. I'm always the more emotional one. But we spoke then to the entire company saying, okay, Paulina (25:36.408) Yes, we all feel this pain too. We know that you are feeling this pain and we want you to know that we are feeling it too. And we are frustrated about ABZ and we are worried about DEF. And we feel you. And at the same time, we also see those opportunities within the scenario. And that shifted things a lot. and for me, it was super, super crucial, not just to, to have this honesty with my own team, but also to hear this from my manager, because I felt so alone with my negative thoughts. felt so It was really devastating to think I was the only one struggling with this situation and me calling him out and forcing him into honesty towards me, actually made the situation much more manageable than by just focusing on the positive side. Right. So what I'm trying to say is if we want creativity ownership, collaboration and really moving forward together. We need the full spectrum of emotions, not just the sunny half, because people will still feel it and be focused on not being seen, not being heard instead of working towards a better future together. Lars Nielsen (27:12.274) And then what's a popular myth about positivity based on your experience? again, you work in a company or you're co-founder of a company called Culture Code Foundation. So you guys get to talk to a lot of workplaces and so on. And from that experience or from those talks, what is a popular myth about positivity that you like to debunk here on the show? Paulina (27:40.36) Probably that positivity is the same as leadership. It is not because hope is powerful. Optimism has its place. Absolutely in the workplace, but leadership is about seeing things clearly, acting wisely, and holding emotional contrast. And I like to say hopeful leadership is this might get hard. Here's how we'll prepare. toxic positivity is, don't worry, everything will be fine. Right? The one builds trust and the other builds delusion. Lars Nielsen (28:26.894) And I'm, you know, when you're saying all of that, right? I'm just sitting here and, and I'm just feeling so guilty. I'm just feeling so guilty because I can't like, I like to be the optimist in the room. I like to be the positive one. And I can't describe how many times I've said to people like, don't worry. Everything will be fine. Just give it time. You know, it will turn around. stuff like that and also being maybe the cheerful in the workplace. I feel so guilty when you say that, but... Paulina (29:03.592) That's actually really good that you bring this up because I don't want to discourage optimism or hopefulness. I really don't want to do that. This is super, super important to have as a person, as a leader in any kind of situation. That's a trait. It becomes difficult or it becomes hurtful. When it just doesn't leave space for the other side as well. That's the only thing I'm trying to say here. Leave space for the hardship, leave space for frustration, leave room for doubt, leave room for struggle. And I mean, especially as men and women, right? There is this beautiful thing that men want to jump into solutions and fix things. And the girlfriends or wives, they're just like, Just listen to me. I don't need you to fix anything. I just want you to listen and understand me. And it's very similar in a workplace scenario. So you can be positive and you can be future oriented without having to fix everything in the moment and just opening up that space to process the not so beautiful things. And then yes, please do move on and do move into this, into the scenario, what we can do. How can we solve this? How can we make the best out of it? Absolutely. You need this. So please don't feel guilty about being positive or hopeful or optimistic. It's not a bad thing. Lars Nielsen (30:44.524) And now I feel good again, because like, in my relationship, my girlfriend always keeps saying to me like that. I'm probably the man she has met in her life. That is the best listener and not just trying to fix things that I can, just listened to what she's saying and then just crying kind of like feeling her pain or her. Paulina (31:02.536) that's so sweet. Lars Nielsen (31:08.878) challenges and so on, instead of just saying like, let's just fix it. I'm just listening. And maybe I should start doing that more in a workplace scenario. Paulina (31:19.336) That's wonderful. Paulina (31:24.07) That's wonderful. Lars Nielsen (31:25.494) Okay, Paulina, earlier on in the podcast, you shared a thing from a previous encounter in your life. But can you share a mistake you've made in your own personal journey that became a key learning experience when it comes to this topic? Paulina (31:44.636) Yeah, that was actually when I was working with a client and I was facilitating culture workshop during a merger. And someone raised a question about job security after the merger. And you and I, we both know that there is no guarantee on job security in a merger. And I actually panicked in this, in this situation and redirected to opportunity language. was like, let's just focus on what we're gaining here for now. And then later one, a team member actually pulled me aside and said, you lost us in that, in that moment. We needed you to stay with the hard stuff and be frank about it. And that stung especially because I was really, I was really torn. was, I was, I wanted to be honest, but I also in that situation didn't know. what I was legally allowed to say. So it was, it was really difficult, but it was definitely a moment where I understood that positivity without presence can feel like, like betrayal. And, that has definitely changed how I lead or how I approach such a, such a meeting, how I prepare for such a meeting as well, because you need to have, you need to be prepared for those kind of questions and have a good answer that leaves room for honesty while being legally okay and doesn't protrude in authenticity. Lars Nielsen (33:29.742) Thanks for sharing that one. Paulina (33:30.184) Even, even if I, even if I would have just said, I don't know, I don't know at this point in time, there is a possibility that we need to merge a couple of teams and that some people will lose their jobs, but I don't know. That would have been the more honest and therefore probably the better answer than to say, let's just focus on what we gain here. Lars Nielsen (33:58.538) Okay, as we wrap up this episode, is there anything else you'd to add or give a final piece of advice to the audience out there? Paulina (34:11.58) Yeah, probably this one thing. If you are a leader, please remember you don't need to protect your people from heart emotions. You need to walk with them through them. Emotionally, emotional honesty doesn't weaken, will not weaken your team. It is actually the foundation for real trust, accountability and adaptability. I spoke about resilience before. So if your culture only allows smiles, it will not survive a storm. But if your culture, company or within your team can hold grief, frustration, anger and joy, then you're building something real and something dependable. Lars Nielsen (34:56.866) That is a very good piece of advice. Thank you very much. Paulina, we have come to an end. Where can our listeners learn more about your work and the Cultural Foundation? Paulina (35:10.034) Yes, you can find the culture code foundation and the culture code foundation.com or on LinkedIn, which is also where you can find me. And you can also find me and Lars on Instagram. And as always, we will put all of the social media handles in the show notes. So no need to remember anything. Just click on those links. And also as always, my shout out to everyone listening. If you have a short story about your work experience, your work life that you want to share in this podcast, we would be super thrilled to have you here as a guest. Or if you'd like to stay super anonymous, just retell your story after you've told it to us. And then we'll, yeah, recount it here and take it apart. Yeah. Lars Nielsen (35:57.902) Yeah, we have done it a couple of times now and I think it's about time we get another story on the show, Do you have a call to action for our audience today here just to kind of wrap things up finally? Paulina (36:04.775) Mm-hmm. Paulina (36:12.028) Yes, why don't you just ask your team this week? What's something we haven't named out loud yet? And just sit with what comes up. No fixing, no spinning, just presence and space for emotional processing. Lars Nielsen (36:27.682) Thank you Paulina and thank you again for being a wonderful co-host and for joining Cultures from Hell and to our listeners. Thank you for tuning in. Remember, building a healthy culture means embracing all emotions, not just the positive ones. Join us next time as we continue to explore the nuances of workplace dynamics. Until then, stay curious, stay authentic and challenge those. toxic smiles. Thank you very much. Paulina (36:59.816) Thank you everyone and thank you, Lars.