The Culture of Overwork: Burning Bright or Burning Out?

Lars Nielsen (00:01.944) So what have been up to this week? Paulina (00:04.825) I'm not too much actually. mean, work-wise, I have developed a full new program for our customers. And on the personal side, well, I actually didn't do anything because I went, I'm climbing last week on, on Sunday on, in like a, you know, in those climbing forests, you know, where, and I usually am really afraid of heights. And I was very proud of myself because I even took the highest track. possible, but I got stuck in the ropes a couple of times and I was freaking exhausted. I was hurting so much. had like the worst muscle cramps of my entire life. for this week, was just sore and trying to get my bones back into their original position. So yeah. Lars Nielsen (00:40.014) you Lars Nielsen (00:59.669) you Paulina (01:03.923) That's what I've been up to. Lars Nielsen (01:06.424) Sounds nice and horrible at the same time. Paulina (01:09.203) It was actually kind of, it was really fun while doing it. Not so much fun the days after. Lars Nielsen (01:19.022) Okay Paulina, cool. Let's do this. Are you ready? Paulina (01:22.835) Yeah, of course I am. Lars Nielsen (01:25.556) Okay, hello everybody and welcome back to... Coaches from Hell! Today, we're gonna talk about something we have all seen. We have seen like the post on social media like rise and grind, sleep is for the weak. know, hustle culture has been sold to us as the path to success. But what happens when the constant pursuit of more leads to burn out? Okay. I'm gonna redo that one. Because I misread that one. Okay, I'm gonna go back and say, okay, are you ready? Paulina (02:13.02) Yes Lars Nielsen (02:14.944) Okay, let's do this. Hello everybody and welcome back to Cultures from Hell. We have all seen the post on social media. Rise and grind, sleepers for the week. Hustle culture has been sold to us as the path to success. But what happens when the constant pursuit of more leads to burnout? and total loss of self. Today, we are peeling back the curtain on the toxic side of overwork. We'll explore why this culture still holds so much power in our workplace and, more importantly, how we can all start to break free from its grip. Joining me today, as you heard in the introduction, is my amazing co-host and expert, Paulina co-founder of College of Code Foundation, Pauline. Welcome. Paulina (03:17.405) Thank you Lars! As always, good to be here! Lars Nielsen (03:21.022) Yes, our favorite Friday thing to do, Okay, Paulina, let's jump into this. As someone who lives and breathe company culture, this is what you do for work. This is your passion. This is why we do the podcast. How would your friends describe your approach to downtime and rest? Paulina (03:25.276) Yes. Paulina (03:46.451) They'd probably say that sometimes I'm serious about recovery. So I have a serious runtimes and where I don't prioritize it as much as I should, but most of the time I am taking my downtime and my rest time pretty seriously because I've had to be. And after burning out during COVID myself while reporting to micromanaging boss, so we've talked about this last week. Rest really stopped being optional for me, especially since I then also switched into working from home mode. And I've been basically working from home for the past four, four to five years. And if I don't manage to find a balance between my office and, or my work and my, my personal life. Yeah, that would just. doesn't work for me anymore. And that's why I protect my downtime. Like it's also my job. So I meditate and I tap daily and I try to spend as much time as I can outdoors. So I love to hike. And when I'm on vacation, I love to go diving because nothing gets me out of my head, like being 20 meters under the surface with no phone signal. Yeah. So I'm trying to follow that rule. If your body has to crash for your mind to rest, then your rest system is broken. Lars Nielsen (05:25.77) I can so much relate to that. I was actually doing meditation for a while and I need to get back to it. It's so nice. But for me and for listeners to the podcast that don't know me or anything about my personal life, I'm like a full blown addicted to fitness or to training. And for me, that is, I have to do it every day. I have to go down to the gym, to the CrossFit gym, you know. put some music in my ears, I'm going to put my phone away, I don't look at my phone while I train and just go nuts and sweat. you know, when you're like physically like pushing yourself to the limit, you can't think about work. It's not possible. So for me, that is how I just disconnect with everything. Paulina (05:58.749) Yeah. Paulina (06:16.326) And it's a very healthy approach. mean, I would love to be addicted to work out. We both know that I am not, but, yeah, I think it's. Lars Nielsen (06:22.041) You Lars Nielsen (06:29.414) Yeah, we are all different. But the downside to that is, know, in the evening when I sit on the sofa with my girlfriend, it's like, oh, my knees are hurting. Like, oh, can you please massage me or something like that? Paulina (06:42.32) I'm sorry to tell you Lars, you're not 21 anymore. Lars Nielsen (06:46.764) No, I'm 22. Yeah, I know, I know. That is not the topic of the podcast today. No. Paulina (06:52.402) No, that, no, no. But I think, I think the common ground here is that something that gets you out of your mind, into your body, and especially shutting down the phone. We are all so overwhelmed with notifications and more information and la-la-la-la. So I've actually just again, deleted Instagram from my phone because I've realized I get... so much inspiration there for things that I could do, that I could try out, that I could, that I should do to, to learn more, to improve myself. And I was like feeling so much overwhelmed just by that, that I decided, okay, I need a break for the next three months. No Instagram for me. Just to keep saying. Lars Nielsen (07:36.65) would love to have your dedication. Okay, Paulina, so what's one myth about hustle culture? And I think we have both been in that, that you like to bust wide open here on the show. Paulina (07:52.979) There are actually two things that I'd like to discuss. The first one is something that actually came up in my, this week. I was reading a scientific book for research and it was written in the early 2000s. So before the credit crisis of 2008 and before the current crisis. And the book clearly states that in, times of chaos and times of upheaval and turmoil, that companies need more empowerment for their people. They need more flexibility. They need more freedom of thinking and to be really successful. that completely ironically, companies in those times go back to hustle culture, to work more, do more, just produce more output, no matter if it actually is an outcome, and just really do the grind, get back into the grind mode. And I found that so fascinating to see this in a scientific work from 20 years ago that companies... have, and we are seeing this right now, don't we? Right? The press is full of those appeals. Like we need to work more. We need to work harder. We need to really hustle to keep up our standard of life. And you know me, I've always worked hard and I always love to work hard, but I find it really funny that companies automatically do the wrong thing that they actually would need to keep. people motivated to keep people engaged, to keep people thriving and driving things forward. And that we're seeing this again is really fascinating to me, like, because I can't believe that we're not learning from our own past. So I think that is the one myth, that hustle culture is something that is needed in times of turmoil. And the other thing is that overwork equals ambition. Paulina (10:13.766) because overwork is often unprocessed fear wearing a productivity costume. I've worked with brilliant, absolutely brilliant people whose calendars are filled to the brim, but not because they are driven, just because they are afraid to say no. They're afraid to not as hardworking as they should be. seem they are afraid of drawing boundaries because they believe that if you draw those boundaries, people say you're not resilient enough or you're not dependable enough. So they don't want to seem dispensable, lazy or out of the loop. I would say ambition should have boundaries because addiction to overwork does not have boundaries. Lars Nielsen (11:13.216) And I will completely admit here on the show that I am guilty of the last part. Like I fill my calendar to the brim. I'm trying to like work it out. You have shown me your system and how you do your calendar and organize your life. I'm still trying and I have so much FOMO on things that it's insane. But yeah. I'm still working on it. Maybe I'll get to it when I'm get said, like get to like around 70 or something like that. Paulina (11:45.693) But it's also part of your personality though, right? You are such a curious person and you just want to try out so many different things. for our listeners, I don't know, I think, Laris, you have three or four businesses running in parallel at the moment. Four five. So you just have to, you're just bubbling over with so many different ideas and projects and you just want to try it all out. And that is also who you are. So. Lars Nielsen (11:48.674) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (11:59.919) Four or five, yes. Lars Nielsen (12:07.106) You Lars Nielsen (12:14.156) Yeah, and I consider it. Paulina (12:15.436) and you, and, and your health, most of the time you're healthy and with that, so you love doing that. And I've also seen you saying, this is getting too much. have to drop something. So I think this is for you. This is still in a healthy balance because you know your boundaries and you know, breaking points. Lars Nielsen (12:37.966) Yeah, and I see it as a strength for me at least. And like you're saying again, like you're saying, I'm not 21 anymore, to fully disclaim I'm 51. That I'm getting to a point where I want to keep that, let's call it for the sake of the show, hustle culture that I possess or my curiosity on things, but I'm learning to also shut down. Paulina (13:05.714) Hmm. Lars Nielsen (13:05.742) and saying like, okay, now I can feel that I have been too much work or it's been too much stress or something like that. And then I shut down. We're talking about shutting down on a daily basis or shutting down for a weekend or shutting down for a week or something like that. you said, like you're saying it is a balance, right? Paulina (13:24.86) Yeah. you, you, and you know, know your boundaries and you know your, and you know where to say no or when to say no, at least. Lars Nielsen (13:31.766) Yes, exactly. Paulina, what was, okay, let me rephrase it. What was the moment or story that made you realize the problem of overwork needed a cultural foundation to tackle it? Paulina (13:50.451) Um, I think in my, my career, seen a lot of talented people break and not metaphorically. mean, literally crash. Um, I've worked, for example, I work with one company that had a burnout rate amongst around 17 % among their customer facing employees. And 17 % of burnout rate is incredibly high. I've never seen a burnout rate that high. before that, and they had a lot of, they had a big hustle culture, which to be fair is not uncommon in the sales environment, right? But in this company, the only response that senior management had for the high burnout rate was, they are just not resilient enough, and therefore they are not the right people for the business, right? And for example, one specific person, the company had taken on more and more responsibility without any race and your leadership training or any support. And they collapse into burnout and we're out for eight months. And if you, if you have an employee who's out for eight months, that costs a lot of money and a lot of knowledge goes down the drain. And clearly from. my perspective, if you see that kind of thing happening once, that can be an individual issue based on. Potentially even based on how resilient that person is. Yes, but also, usually it's always there's always some systematic thing into it. But if you see a burnout rate of 17%, then it definitely is a systemic thing. Right. Um, so that was where I realized with, with this company, with this hype, huge burnout rate was that Paulina (15:59.795) I could see that so many companies are designing cultures that reward collapse. And that is not just a leadership issue. It's a systemic failure. Lars Nielsen (16:13.258) And was there a particular struggle or a hard time in your career that shaped your perspective on this? Paulina (16:21.45) I think I've seen a lot of those things coming around and the higher up I went in the hierarchy of, companies, the more I would see it. but for me personally, I mean, I mentioned it in the intro, that I burned out myself during COVID. and that was partially due to my own insecurity to try to prove myself, but it was also part to the fact that I was being micromanaged. and again, listen back to last week's episode from two weeks ago, where we discussed this in detail, but I definitely overworked to prove my value. and I was convinced that if I just pushed hard enough, things would get better and instead I broke. I, so I can, I think I see both sides of it. I see the systemic failure. also see, how individual preconditions can drive this because people who are, a tendency to overwork themselves because of insecurity, because of wanting to, to rise through the ranks. And for me, I I'm, studied Islamic science, right? I didn't study sales. I didn't study marketing. I didn't start a study business. So I always had like this intrinsic thing. I have to prove myself, have to showcase that I'm really good at sales, even though I have no experience here. So that was, and I think that's true for a lot of people in sales, because a lot of sales people in Germany, at least, don't have a straightforward career. They try different things and come from different backgrounds. So for my personal reflection, I think I was addicted to being useful and being valued. I needed the dopamine of being the go-to person, the person that had all the answers. And yeah, and I think that's the shadow side of working hard. It feels really virtuous until your body calls your bluff. Lars Nielsen (18:39.738) And why do you think so many of us, even when we know it's bad, are still addicted to our work? Paulina (18:47.728) Hmm. So first of all, think, fortunately, this is not true for all generations. The younger generations have much better boundaries. But especially for us millennials who grew up in a time where we really had to fight to get a job. When we first entered the job market, I think it's become pretty easy to confuse productivity with identity. Also, we were raised by the boomers for whom having a stable work was like life's fulfillment. So that still rings true for a lot of millennials. And so there is this kind of idea, I work, therefore I matter running around and I can only applaud the younger generations for having successfully laid that. BS to rest, so kudos to you guys and girls doing it right. And on top of that, there is an emotional payoff to overwork because overwork will give you control, especially in chaos, which again is the exact same reason why companies try to go back to hustle culture in chaotic times because they also want to have more control over the chaos. It gives you validation through praise and it gives you distractions from harder emotions. so it's like a socially sanctioned drug, maybe even. Right. but the crash will come sooner or later. The question just is, do we catch it early or do we wait for us to break us? Cause I've seen people who when. It took two, three, four years to go back out to work. Lars Nielsen (20:49.112) So you talked about overwork as an emotional addiction. Can you explain that for our listeners? Paulina (20:59.814) Yeah, think just going a bit deeper into what I tried to say before is that overwork can be, it doesn't have to be, but it can be a coping strategy. Right? some people drink, some people scroll, others overachieve. I'm not saying every overachiever is addicted to overworking. That's not what I'm saying, what I'm here to say, but constant busyness can become a way to regulate emotion. avoid hard conversations or feel in control. And again, with the boomer generation, with the millennial generation, where Mental health was not so much on the forefront of our education and having open, honest, difficult conversations, showing vulnerability, especially among men, right? We have this insane notion that men can't show you vulnerability because that makes them less manly. Lars Nielsen (22:05.442) BS. Paulina (22:06.321) BS, big time BS. But the emotions are still there for all of us, the emotions are there. And a lot of us just numb them down in different ways. Like the Instagram feed can be a way to numb it down. The exercise can be a way to numb it down. And overwork, you can also be a way of numbing those emotions. Again, not saying that's true for everyone and not saying that everyone who's overworking is avoiding their own emotions. Just saying this can be a contributing factor to making overwork like an actual addiction, right? And the flip side is the more addicted we are to being on, the less capacity we have for actual presence, reflection and creativity, which are the things that keep us sane and healthy, actual presence, actual connection with people. really reflecting what is going on, how I can, what I can do differently, not just at work, but for in life. Right. So in my, it's my advice for people who realize that working so hard is helping them to numb something is definitely ask yourself. what you are avoiding. because that's where not only progress, but I would actually say where healing can start. Lars Nielsen (23:46.776) That's a very good advice. And in your experience, that's why I'm just moving on to the next question. I'm a man, I can't handle this. Paulina (23:49.808) I'm getting deep. I'm getting deep here today. Paulina (23:58.93) You're a man from that generation. Lars Nielsen (24:02.132) I actually have, but I would say, so call out to all men out there about emotions. My girlfriend, she keeps saying to me that every time I get emotional and I just pour out like my inner self or my inner feelings and so on, she says, that is the point in our relationship where she is the most in love with me. And when she thinks I'm the sexiest. Paulina (24:29.808) I say the same to my husband every time. it is that funnily enough, I saw this also this week. There are scientifically proved studies that show that women need vulnerable men to really feel connected to them. So the, one of the biggest secrets to a happy relationship lie in being able to be vulnerable and being able to show your emotions to your wife or your girlfriend because we love that and we need that for you to actually feel connected with you. So yes, yes, be vulnerable, show emotions and kudos to Anya for telling you that. Lars Nielsen (25:18.538) And let me just put it in a way that every man understands. If you want to get laid, then just pour out your inner emotions. It's a sure thing. Okay, let's move on. In your experience. Yes, we are. Paulina (25:35.602) we're turning into dating podcasts today. Lars Nielsen (25:44.034) Paulina, in your experience, what are the three biggest signs a company is suffering from overwork culture? Paulina (25:53.22) Hmm. That's a great question. And I would guess my top three are definitely back to back meetings in calendars because, yeah, if you see that, then there is no time to think, let alone lead. Then hero worship is one that I see a lot. And where I try to tell my customers, don't do it. Don't do it. When you reward people that work on weekends. or answer emails at midnight that is just sending a signal that this is expect. not only that you find this amazing that somebody is bringing this extra effort, but you actually show that you expect that. And that puts so much pressure on the rest of the team. So please, please, please don't do that. And the third thing is unclear priorities. because then everything feels urgent, nothing feels complete, and everybody just keeps hustling around trying to figure out for themselves, okay, do I need to do this first or do I have to do this as my first priority? And then they're running around like catalyst chickens before long, and nothing will get done at the end of the day. Lars Nielsen (27:13.164) And can, and then when you say hero worship, that actually reminds me of something I read. There could be like a pro tip for our listeners out there, especially the ones that are our managers or having a team that they manage. We all know the trick in our email where we can schedule it for later. So it seems like we are working late, right? Yes. Paulina (27:36.314) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (27:38.255) This guy, I think it was on LinkedIn. I'll get more to my knowledge from LinkedIn or TikTok. He wrote something about that. He actually, when he's working late at night, he scheduled it during work hours the next day. So he actually uses that feature the right way instead of the wrong way. Because he said like, I don't want to stress my team. I don't want just because I'm working at 11 at night. Paulina (27:59.556) Yes. Lars Nielsen (28:08.18) I don't want my team to answer me at 11 at night. I want them to spend time with their family. So I schedule it for half past nine the next day. Paulina (28:17.445) That is one amazing way to do it. I've also seen people putting in a disclaimer, just because my working hours may differ from yours, I don't expect you to react within my working hours. But I also know that just having the notification pop up on my phone can sound an alarm bell, right? Even if I do know that people don't... Lars Nielsen (28:20.491) Yes. Lars Nielsen (28:32.0) Uh-huh. Paulina (28:45.911) expect me to respond off the mark. So I love the scheduling emails for the next morning or so. And if you're a bigger corporation, I would definitely think about, and I know that a lot of companies are already doing that, making sure that emails and messages don't go through after, between certain hours or over the weekend. And Lars Nielsen (29:12.074) I love that. Paulina (29:15.353) My pro pro pro tip is especially in startups, cetera, because I've always done this. I've always had Slack on my phone. had Gmail on my phone. I had all the messaging apps from work on my phone. And I deleted all of these apps when I went on vacation and I asked my team members to do the same because I didn't even want them to get, have the option of checking their email during their vacation. And, yeah, so there are a couple of ways you can really do this well. Lars Nielsen (29:54.863) And what's one big leadership mistake that fuels overwork culture? Paulina (30:01.137) For me, 100 % lead is to confuse visibility with actual value. Just because you see someone online or in the office all day, doesn't mean they are doing their best work. And so the flip side would be for a great leader, setting the tone by respecting boundaries. Like for example, we said before, modeling focus time, again, just as you just mentioned with... scheduling the emails. And the other important thing is that you should be setting SMART goals that can be easily and transparently measured. And then you reward the outcomes from those SMART goals, not busyness. Lars Nielsen (30:49.888) And many people listening to the show might feel trapped. And if someone wants to start a, let's call it in quotation mark, a workload detox, what's the very first step they can take? Paulina (31:07.217) I always advise to start with a calendar audit because that's, it feels like a little bit like budgeting your time, right? So I personally like to work from time to time also with physical paper. So, but you can also do this in any online forum that you like. So, but I would print out like two typical weeks of my calendar and then use a highlighter to showcase, okay, those things are I'm a green, those are energizing and they are core to my role. Yellow are the things that are neutral, that are necessary for my job, but potentially draining. And red are pointless things that are legacy commitments or that are simply ego driven. And then I would cut one red thing, just one. And you'll feel that you're getting back into power a little bit and you'll win back half an hour, maybe just 20 minutes, maybe a full hour of the week. that's, that's the very first thing that I would do. And, the second thing would be to define Paulina (32:31.259) focus hours where I turn off all notifications and communicate those very, very clearly to all the colleagues that I'm working with. I think those are two steps that are pretty easy to work into your calendar and that helps you feel a bit more in control. Lars Nielsen (32:49.76) I would say one thing so easy to do. Excuse me. One thing that I do that is so easy to do is if you're a Mac or iPhone user, can set like focus, then you don't get any notifications. this is a default setting. Just say focus one hour. And then you don't get any notification for one hour. I do that. Twice a day, I do it in the morning when I start and I do it after my lunch break when I start again. Cause then you have at least those two hours when nobody interrupts you. And I just see that I get so much more done also because I have a brain that gets easily distracted. So for me that actually helps quite a lot. Paulina (33:33.617) Okay. Paulina (33:42.266) And it's not just your brain loss. It is actually also proven that a notification that we, that we see or hear, takes us out of our focus mode. And it takes us up to 11 minutes every single time to get back to the same level of concentration that we were before. And we are getting worse and worse and worse on this because we're getting so many, distractions and I've read a study. just the other week, you guys might realize in in today's episode that I read a lot of scientific studies. So this one study said that three years ago, Western people, Western people could focus 12 minutes on a, yeah, on one thing, on one task. And just three years later, we're down to eight minutes. So eight minutes is the maximum that the average Western person can focus on a single task. And that's insane. That's insanely low. So turning off your notifications, both on your phone and on your computer can be a game changer because you can really start to focus longer on a specific task. Lars Nielsen (35:07.864) So you just championed calendar audits and I think you've done so in the past as well. What's the most common surprise people find when they start doing it? Paulina (35:19.483) I mean, for me, it's not really a surprise anymore, but people, everyone I do this with is really shocked how little time they're spending on their core roles. So leaders often realize that they are buried in side projects or reporting loops. I mean, as a sales lead, I once had a job where I had five forecast meetings a week. Five. because so much changes in a freaking week, you know? Five different forecast meetings. So reporting loops, status update meetings, la de la de la. All of that time is not spent on coaching your team, solving real problems, or creating strategic clarity. So definitely not spending time on your core work. And especially as a leader, becomes super, super crucial to cut out this noise and focus on your actual role to be effective. And I see this really often spend way too much time, especially in sales on admin work or in unnecessary meetings. And that goes across every single department. So a lot of people that I work with think they don't have time. but actually they haven't made the time for what matters most for them to be effective, productive and successful in their roles. And I know that doing this is really hard because it requires open pushback, especially if you're an individual contributor or a middle manager. And that is one reason why I'm a big fan of team agreements because they will help individual contributors and leaders alike to commit and adhere to some basic common rules for collaboration, at least within the team. Lars Nielsen (37:21.238) And what's an example of team agreement that helps push back against overwork? Paulina (37:28.593) So it could be, for example, no slack after 6pm, unless urgent. It could be every meeting must have a purpose owner, an agenda and to no attendance needed option. So make sure that you invite people as optional if you don't really need their input for the meeting. And it could also be an agreement that you were allowed to say, I don't think I can contribute any value to this meeting. So I'm not attending. to just make sure you have this calendar hygiene and can focus, right? So things should be simple. They should be, repeatable and they should be collective so that everyone, least in your direct team adheres to the same rules. because team agreements only work when they are explicit and when you reinforce them. So. Otherwise, it just reverts back to the loudest behavior in the room. Lars Nielsen (38:32.822) And how do you personally maintain a healthy work-life balance? Paulina (38:39.697) So during the workday, I fiercely protect my lunch break. I mean, that might seem odd to for anyone working hard, but for me, it's non-negotiable. I take one hour every day where I don't take calls, where I don't do errands. I just use it as my daily reset so that I can start the second half of the day with intention and not depletion. And another thing I do is I ask myself weekly, what am I carrying? That's not mine. And then I also put it down. I just don't ask myself the question. I act on it. Lars Nielsen (39:25.23) And to all the listeners, please listen to this and please copy paste. The same thing for taking that break in between. Yeah, it's just so good. I normally I work from home. So I usually at least somewhere between 11 and 1. I go and I just lay down. Paulina (39:47.985) Hmm. Lars Nielsen (39:48.727) And I'm fortunate enough to have a really, really friendly and nice cat. And every time I do, yeah, but every time I do, he comes, he lays on my chest and he starts purring every single day. And that is so like soothing for me when he does that. Paulina (39:54.053) Most of the time. Paulina (40:00.946) No. that is so relaxing. Yeah. Lars Nielsen (40:10.254) And that is how I reset. And honestly, I have to set an alarm every time because I asleep every time. Paulina (40:19.089) Amazing. And for me, I go back to my desk after my break, I usually, and I start the worksheet with that, and I do this after my day reset, I do a little bit of tapping, like just two minutes to really get back into focus mode. If people are not familiar with tapping, check out the tapping solution. It's an amazing app that will introduce you to this technique. Lars Nielsen (40:24.11) Mm-hmm. Paulina (40:48.187) We're not sponsored by them. I'm just a huge fan and I've been using it for six years. So check it out if you like. It's a really cool tool. Lars Nielsen (41:00.492) Okay, Paulina, here we are getting to the end of another podcast here. And if you had to pick one action a company can take to shift from overwork to wellbeing, what would it be? Paulina (41:17.385) that's a tough one. One thing. I guess I would say make leadership training mandatory. Because most overwork starts with managers or leaders who don't know how to delegate, to coach or prioritize. So my assumption is that if you invest in that part early when you help your managers. prioritize, delegate, and coach that can prevent a lot of burnout, not just for the employees, individual contributors, but also for the managers themselves. Lars Nielsen (42:05.795) Very good one. Thank you very much. And where can our listeners learn more about both you and the Culture Code Foundation? Paulina (42:14.267) Well, you can always check out our website at culturecodefoundation.com. You can follow me on LinkedIn. You can find the company on LinkedIn as well. And you can also find me on Instagram, even though I'm not going to be there for the next three months. I will get emails if I get a message and I'll get back to you. So we will put all the social media handles as always in the show notes. So you don't have to note anything down or remember anything. Lars Nielsen (42:42.612) No, just reach out either to you or to me. I can probably not get good advice on cultural culture, but if you want to appear on the show, if you have a story that you want to share with us, both public or anonymous, then please just reach out. Pauline, any call to action for our listeners before we round up for today? Paulina (42:53.734) Yes. Paulina (43:04.235) I want to go back to my calendar audit. Just do it today. Find one thing that drains you and cancel it, delegate it or change how you show up to it. That's not selfish. It's magic to bring back a little bit more joy into your work life. Lars Nielsen (43:24.024) Thank you very much. Have a great day out there to all our listeners. Paulina (43:29.819) Thank you all and thank you Lars.