When the Founder Becomes the Problem

Lars Nielsen (00:01.612) Hey Paulina Paulina (00:03.915) Hey Lars! Lars Nielsen (00:06.142) You know that two weeks, three weeks from now, I'm actually coming to Germany. Paulina (00:13.223) No, two weeks, it's two weeks. Lars Nielsen (00:14.702) And why am I coming to Germany? Paulina (00:19.081) Because I became old. Paulina (00:24.619) because I turned 40 and you are coming to celebrate you and your girlfriend are coming to celebrate our big party with Lars Nielsen (00:33.006) Yes, but if you're old and you're turning 40, what am I like? Am I like something you find deep down in the bottom of the pyramids or something like that? I'm a fossil. Damn. Oh, shit. I keep cursing on my podcast. It's not good for the algorithm. They hate it. Paulina (00:37.769) Hahaha! Paulina (00:45.131) You're a fossil. you Paulina (00:58.325) Well, as long as we beep it out in the subtitles, I think that's the main part. Lars Nielsen (01:02.798) But I know, no, no, I'm not going to do this. We have to be authentic. We have to stand by who we are as people, right? Paulina (01:10.175) Yeah. And just in case our listeners hadn't noticed that yet, we are people who swear a lot. Lars Nielsen (01:16.878) Yes, my expert girlfriend actually said that there science behind it saying that people that swear are intelligent. Paulina (01:28.841) That is some, I like that. Lars Nielsen (01:30.434) And that is, we have to look that up because if that's the case, wow, I'm so intelligent. Paulina (01:40.299) You had to be honest, you just wanted to say I'm so effing intelligent. Lars Nielsen (01:43.482) Okay. Lars Nielsen (01:47.23) Yes, I actually realize right now that we are going to record an episode while I'm in Germany. We're not going to stop in Berlin. So I have to remember to bring my microphone because we're actually going to record that. And let's do that. So we're going to record while both in Germany at the same time. Paulina, are you ready to do today's episode? Paulina (02:01.833) Okay. Paulina (02:09.151) Yes, I would love that. Paulina (02:14.923) other ways. Lars Nielsen (02:16.574) Okay, let's dive in. Welcome everybody to Cultures from Hell. I'm your host Lars and today we are diving into a tricky but crucial topic. What happens when the founder becomes the very problem the culture needs to solve. Visionary leaders can create incredible companies. We have all seen that, but sometimes their blind spots become roadblocks. My guest as always is Paulina, co-host and co-founder of the Culture Code Foundation, who helps companies or organizations navigate exactly these challenges. Welcome back Paulina. Paulina (03:06.443) Thank you Lars. Lars Nielsen (03:08.746) Okay, Paulina, if you had to choose and you have to choose, would you rather work with a founder who thinks they know it all? And we have all met those. Or one who admits they don't know, but refuses to listen. Paulina (03:28.075) That sounds like a classic lose-lose situation. Lars Nielsen (03:32.984) Yeah Paulina (03:36.831) I guess if I have to choose and you said I have to choose, I would prefer the I know it all founder because at least with them, you know what you're dealing with. The, don't know, but I won't listen type that's arrogance and chaos masked in outward humility, because at the end of the day, if they don't listen, they clearly do believe that they do know everything, but they just pretend to be humble. And those kinds of people, for me personally, they just drain so much energy. And with them, from my experience, decisions get delayed, ownership gets blurred, and people just stop trusting the process. They definitely won't speak up because what whatever for if you won't listen any or if they I don't want to gender here. So they don't want to listen anyway. Why should I ever speak up? Lars Nielsen (04:41.088) And in your experience, you both have experience from working in startup companies and of course, like with the College Code Foundation, working with companies. When do you see or when does a founder's vision turn from strength into a liability? Paulina (05:05.554) I think there are, there's certain inflection points during the growth of a company where that can become difficult because if in scaling companies, you do need different founder personalities or at least CEO personalities because you just need different strengths. When it comes to culture, I would say it flips when the vision becomes a mirror instead of a window. What I mean by that is that if the founder, instead of helping the team see what's possible, the vision becomes a projection of the founders ego, or unresolved baggage. And I have seen founders who wanted to be involved in absolutely everything. Design, hiring the exact shade of this like emoji background, the fruit bowls that were purchased for for the office and at first glance that might look like care, but clearly it becomes a control issue, right? And when control meets a fast scaling team, used to be a strength becomes a bottleneck. So that is also the inflection point that I see most often. you, when you really scale as a startup and you need to move really fast and you're so used to running everything through the founder and you still want to be in charge of that and they will just really slow down an organization. Lars Nielsen (06:45.71) Yeah. And I think that this is like, especially within, you say, startup companies where things move extremely fast. I think it's, it's, it's a very common thing. And, and I would say that I, I I'm actually guilty of doing this. So I have a couple of startups that I'm doing and one of them is, is, is about to take off. And we are three co-founders and, and I'm kind of like, I like to I'd like to get my hands dirty with everything. But I actually talked with my girlfriend last night about it, saying that I've actually come to realize that I have to let go. I actually don't see myself as a control freak, but maybe I am. But I have to let go because you can't really do it. And I remember the first startup I ever worked for, the two founders. which have done it before and sold a company. so they had a lot of like experience in doing that. They sent around an article and I'll put that into, in the show notes, if I can find it again, an article called give away your Legos. Cause it's all about like, you have to let go. And I remember cause I was like employing number two or three in that company that grew to 50 within like no time. And so I've been involved in like marketing, building the product, selling the products, like everything, doing support, everything. And it was really, really hard for me to let go. was my job was selling the product, but I like letting go of the control of building the product or the features and so on. It was so hard for me. And it actually ended up that I left the company because of that. Paulina (08:25.716) Yeah. Mm. Paulina (08:41.096) Okay. Okay. Well, I fully understand that this is super, super difficult to do because it's kind of your baby, right? If it's your business, then you really want it. At the same time, it also comes from a place of insane superiority, if we're being honest, right? This belief that I'm the only person who can do things right. And I'm the person who can do things the best way possible. I think there are Lars Nielsen (08:42.296) So, yeah. Lars Nielsen (08:47.47) Yes, exactly. Lars Nielsen (09:03.906) Mm-hmm. Lars Nielsen (09:07.436) Mm-hmm. Paulina (09:08.554) probably just a handful of people out of out there for whom this is actually true. And you know, I love you and you're amazing, but I doubt that you, that you or I are among those handful of people who are actually better at everything than anybody else out there. And clearly on the side, it's also just not sustainable. Lars Nielsen (09:24.494) WHAT?! Paulina (09:38.504) I mean, nobody can keep this up with a scaling organization without sacrificing either health or personal relationships or family or sports or whatever. Lars Nielsen (09:38.798) Never. Like never. Lars Nielsen (09:53.58) Yeah. And then for me, it was a very important learning that I've taken in my career after that. So back on track, what are some, let's call it some early warning signs that a founder is holding back their own culture. Paulina (10:01.373) Yeah. Paulina (10:14.09) Well, for me, clearly, I think we'd shown through what I said before, the slow decisions, especially on small things, because they need to approve everything. So I used to work for a company, for example, every flight that was booked by the sales team had to go through all three founders to be approved. What, and obviously by the time you get the approval of three founders on a flight, the flight will be not, will not be available anymore at that price that you asked the approval for. So you would stop the entire rotation again. Bonkers. Uh, so that's clearly one thing and it's not only holding back the culture. If you ask me, it actually holds back the operation as well because it slows down a lot of, um, crucial. things as well. The second thing that I would mention is the fear of failure in the team. because then you'll hear whispers like, don't send this yet. It's not perfect. And the third thing is that people either stop telling the truth or they start making jokes about the founder. So when they starting to lose a little bit of the respect. or feedback is watered down or everybody waits until the founder leaves to really speak honestly. Those are important signs that there's something going on. And if you hear more jokes than questions during a founder's absence, then the situation is already, the culture is already broken. Because yeah, the culture is... is happening when the founder is not in the room, is what actually happens when the founder is not in the room in those situations. Lars Nielsen (12:13.762) And can you share a story where the founder became the bottleneck? Paulina (12:19.646) I've honestly, have so many. really, mean, I just shared the flight story, right? There was one of them, but, that was actually where I was still working in that company as an employee, not as a, as a consultant. And from, from that perspective, I worked with a founder who insisted on being involved in every single decision. even down to how the recruitment ad was being worded. And you know me, I pride myself in Kenda and that is also part of our culture at the Ed Culture Co Foundation that we really speak up about things and that we don't sugarcoat. So we addressed it really head on with the founder. And even though they did see our point. They've really struggled with changing their behavior. And obviously we pushed too hard at one point because they then stopped working with us because from their perspective, perspective, were overstepping, which, which is a fair judgment if that's how they felt fair enough. And A few weeks later, I got a DM from one of their employees telling me that the founder had become a running joke internally. they were talking about, the team was talking about, well, we don't really have to act on this important topic because the founder is going to take forever to make a decision how he's going to, how they. want to have it done. And so they were really making fun of the situation and light of that situation. And the tragedy here is that I truly, truly believe that that founder was convinced that they were protecting the vision and the culture. And so they really wanted to do the right thing. Paulina (14:42.814) but in reality they actually lost their team's respect. Lars Nielsen (14:48.448) which I think is very normal. I will lose the respect. hate, we have talked about this so many times, I hate micromanagement. Like for me, it's like, it's just the best way to kill productivity, right? Paulina (15:07.187) and motivation. Lars Nielsen (15:08.494) Yeah, motivation. And that is why I am self-employed. Okay, so why is it so hard for employees to speak truth to power in founder-led companies? Paulina (15:10.174) Yep. Paulina (15:15.206) Hehehehehe Paulina (15:29.054) I think that is, has multiple reasons. first of all, very many startups work with a lot of very young and unexperienced employees who might not, might not have learned to speak up. And so that is, that is the one aspect to it. And the other thing is that the founder of is the culture and that's the way it should be right at the beginning. If you found a company. Obviously if you do it intentionally, you do set the tone. mean, Ari and I have been doing this for the Country Club Foundation. You're obviously doing it for your businesses. So that is just the normal and right way to go forward. But when your job, your equity and your sense of belonging all tries back to one person. then you tend to learn very fast what's to say and what isn't because I think I mentioned that before we as human beings, we have the tendency to try to protect ourselves by all means possible. And many founders unintentionally confuse disagreement with disloyalty, which also has to do with the fact that many first time founders also don't have experience as leaders. Right? If you have serial entrepreneurs or founders who've been doing this for multiple years, that's obviously a completely different story. But with a first time founder, there is also that lack of experience on the leadership part. And, those circumstances can just lead to people protecting themselves by staying vague or silent. And I think it's a very understandable motion. And at the same time, the silence is, and we've been down that road over and over again, silence is where dysfunction breeds. Lars Nielsen (17:38.478) wouldn't agree more. You talked about, like you said, like founders is sometimes like they've never tried to manage the team before. And of course they have to learn it and so on. And then speaking of those founders, there any myth about founders often believe that about themselves that make this worse? Paulina (18:04.963) yes. Lars Nielsen (18:07.182) Maybe a little bit of a question. Paulina (18:11.652) Slightly priming, yes. So I would definitely say the one that I mentioned before, this belief that I'm the only one who can get this right, that I'm the only one who can do this properly, or that I'm the one who can do everything best. That is clearly a myth for most people out there, which goes hand in hand with the belief that I'm the only one who truly gets the vision. Side note. If that is true, then you're not communicating your vision well enough. it's a third myth that I see regularly is that believe if I'm being hard to impress, that means that I have high standards and then I don't settle for less than exceptional performance, for example. And. Last but not least, myth that people will tell me if something's wrong. Paulina (19:20.422) Each of these myths, my perspective is very seductive and each creates a culture where fear replaces feedback. Because if that believer is super, super ingrained in the founder's personality and they talk about it or they just send it out there by their actions, that is really, really hard to argue against. without risking your job usually, because all of those beliefs come from a place of superiority, of believing that yourself to be so much better than everyone else around you, and then you won't be open for feedback. And I very, very strongly advise, and that's also something that we do in our work, that founders need to swap those myths or self beliefs with radical self honesty and radical self reflection and a willingness to build structures where others can thrive without the founders being in the room and without the founders having to fix and control everything. And Don't get me wrong, I think most founders that I've met are really strong visionaries. really get, they really bring something of value and great stuff into the world. So I don't want to say they are all, they don't know what they are doing or whatnot, right? But I do see, and maybe it also has to be a bit like this. you maybe you can't be too self-critical in order to become a founder. Paulina (21:18.322) because then you would doubt every move that you're making and that could hinder the process as well. So I want to raise that perspective as well. But I think it's crucial to be self honest, not necessarily self critical, but self honest. And really keep asking yourself how your behavior supports or hinders the growth of the business in terms of culture, in terms of collaboration, in terms of processes, speed, et cetera. Lars Nielsen (21:53.58) And if I can just say something like to to myth number three, because when you said like people will tell me if something is wrong again, back to the story that I talked about earlier for the first time I ever joined. Again, I was not a founder or a co-founder, but I was one of the first employees. So when we grew really fast, some of the like later hires, they kind of saw me as one of those because I was like really crucial to. Paulina (22:03.85) Yeah. Paulina (22:21.471) Mm. Lars Nielsen (22:21.576) company and one of the co-founders was living in the US, so she was not that present in the office. And because I was so early in and I was in charts of sales, I was involved in a lot of people saw me as one of, again, not the founders, but one of the early ones. Paulina (22:28.894) Yeah. Paulina (22:39.978) a founding member, so to say. Lars Nielsen (22:43.918) founding member or whatever you wanted to tell me, say, and on top of that, you know me, you've seen me, you know, like I'm a hundred plus kilos, like I'm six, six, two, I can't remember how much that is in feet, but I'm like six, two, six, year tall, like, you know, and sometimes I came into people and said like, Hey, we need to change that. need to do that. And so on and so on. And people just said, yes. yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And then later I learned that they went to other people and said like, I just said yes because I'm afraid of saying no to loss. Paulina (23:18.366) Hmm. Lars Nielsen (23:19.758) And that also learns for me that learns like that again, like people don't always tell you the truth, especially if they, let's say it's afraid of you. hate using that term because I see myself as a really caring, loving person. love to hug people and so on. Right. But I also became aware of like that the power and I'm saying that in quotation mark. you have if you are a founder or founding member or a very early hire in a company because that comes with power that you have to respect. Paulina (23:58.195) Obviously. Absolutely. That is a natural thing. And that's what I mean with self honesty, right? If you, need to be aware of that kind of thing. You need to be aware of the power that you're exuding and that you're having and treat it with care. If you want to achieve the best for the, for the business and quite frankly, for you men is also. incredibly important to be aware of your physical presence, because that can be threatening, especially if it's unexpected. you enter a room unexpectedly and you're a big, tall man, for a lot of people that can unconsciously trigger some kind of fear response, and then they will act on it. that doesn't have to do anything with the fact that you are threatening. But I've heard multiple stories like that from men before. That they don't perceive themselves as threatening at all, but they've come into situations where other people were frightened simply by the physical presence. So if you are aware of that, you can also obviously mitigate it, right? By, for example, approaching people more softly in terms of not... Lars Nielsen (25:18.692) huh. Paulina (25:24.316) unexpectedly opening a door of not just showing up out of nowhere but announcing yourself, etc. Super simple, easy things. Not easy. Lars Nielsen (25:36.366) I often consider myself the same as the dog breed, great Dane, which is like a huge, huge, huge dog, but it doesn't know that. you'd always want to sit on people's lap. Right. That's how I perceive myself. Okay. I am a Dane, right? So I am a great Dane. Right. Paulina (25:45.648) Hehehehehe Paulina (25:51.508) Yeah. That's actually a really nice metaphor. Lars Nielsen (26:06.551) Yeah, okay. Paulina (26:06.73) I was just about to say you risk me calling you the Great Dane from now on. Lars Nielsen (26:11.822) Let's change the title to the Great Dane podcast. Okay, so how does loyalty to a founder and I would assume and I know that from experience that loyalty to a founder is a thing, like a big thing. So how does loyalty to a founder sometimes silence necessary critique? Paulina (26:39.784) Mm. So first of all, I believe founder loyalty is a huge thing out there. and that also brings back some responsibility to the founder because for example, with Eric, right? When I, when we were both working at Solvmate, I think we were extremely loyal to Eric, but there was never a moment where I didn't feel I couldn't, I couldn't critique him. Or where I couldn't give him like super candid feedback because he just made sure that, candid feedback was just taken really, that he took it really, really well and that he really encouraged it. So the res and the responsibility here again, unfortunately, dear founders out there, it's on you to, to make sure that that happens. because otherwise when people are. loyal to a fault for a person instead of the purpose, then for lot of people, critiquing that person can feel like betrayal. And I have seen teams avoiding giving hard feedback because they really like the founder or because they felt indebted. And the thing is real loyalty means helping someone grow, not letting them shrink the company around their unresolved leadership gaps. Lars Nielsen (28:16.344) Yeah. And, and if, if, if I'm an employee and I see the founder is, is a problem, is, sorry, seeing the founder is the problem. What are three, three practical things I can do. Paulina (28:28.522) Mm-hmm. Paulina (28:33.854) Well, think my, our listeners know this by now. Step number one for me is always self-reflection. So you can ask yourself, how are you complicit in terms of, are you maybe waiting for someone else to speak up? And then start by shifting your posture from complaint to courage because If you just complain to your peers about the founders behavior, nothing's going to change. Right. So you need to find ways to, to, to speak up. Obviously you don't need to, there are people who just want to survive in any given context, but if you do want to thrive, then this is what I would suggest. The second step always is building alliances. Find others who share your view because culture changes through networks, not solo heroes. And even in founder led companies, every single employee can influence the company, the company culture. It's not necessarily down to the, to the founder, right? Obviously you can run against walls, but there are always things that you can do. And that's probably The third step, start small, but very, very clear. So race one issue. with clarity and care, name the impact on the team. And that is something that I would always advise. Don't, don't complain, but showcase the impact that certain situations or decisions are going to make, are going to have, because then you detach it from the founders personality and you bring it down to business needs. And that is usually something that founders find much more easy to respond to. Right? mean, also nobody really wants to be attacked personally. But if I can, if I can see that there is an impact that is going to hurt the business, that is something that has the tendency to make people listen. And Paulina (30:54.984) Obviously there are situations where people are not in a position to speak up safely for whatever reasons. Go back to the last 20, 27 episodes. I think there is a lot of situations in there where it's not safe to speak up. And in those cases, my, my, my advice document, protect your own clarity and start planning an exit strategy before the toxicity starts costing you your mental health. Lars Nielsen (31:24.472) How do you frame feedback in a way that a powerful founder can actually hear? Paulina (31:33.06) Mm. I would probably use something from the appreciative inquiry. So I would firstly names what you value about their leadership or about their vision and then describe the behavior, behavior, not the person super critical. That's creating friction and the impact again, and the impact. that this behavior has on the team or on the speed or whatever. Ideally, add some numbers to that. Like if you can say something like, because of that situation, we have seen four people quit the team already and it cost us 140k to rehire for those four people. That is... That's obviously very powerful argument. And the third thing in this process is to offer a vision of what success could look like if that behavior shifted. so because then it's not a complaint, it's a concrete actionable, and positive approach to a situation. So let me give you a concrete example, how, how such a feedback could look like. Lars, I think you're incredibly committed to excellence. And I believe that's why the product is so strong. And when you give last minute feedback on every tiny design detail, the team scrambles and start doubting their own judgment. What if we agreed on design principles upfront so that you could stay focused on the strategic calls? Paulina (33:29.671) Only you can make. Paulina (33:34.526) So that is, that's how you could approach this kind of situation. Doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to take it obviously, but it definitely raises your chances. Lars Nielsen (33:47.47) Yeah. And I would also say, again, of course that depends on the leader or the founder or the people receiving the message, but voicing it from your end gives you like the confidence of saying it. And also hopefully the leader would take it in and maybe if they don't react on it right away, maybe over time they'll start changing things, right? Paulina (33:53.788) always. Paulina (34:14.886) Exactly. That's one thing, obviously. And the other thing is that you feel like you are actually in charge of... You're not just a victim to situation, but you are taking charge of actively trying to change something. And that gives you back a little bit of control over your own work life. And I think that is already really important that you don't feel helpless. Lars Nielsen (34:42.734) Earlier on you talked about creating allies within the company. What role can allies or middle managers play in creating safety for truth telling? Paulina (34:48.307) Hmm? Paulina (34:57.214) Hmm. Hmm. Paulina (35:05.14) Well, I would say... They can be cultural buffers in terms of they can create. If you have an ally that you really trust, then at least you have a small pocket where you can speak up honestly, even if it doesn't ever reach the top, it just gives you space to process that those things. And if your allies happen to be middle managers, well, that can, they can then in turn. ideally normalize honest conversations and protect people from founder volatility. So yeah, buffer function probably describes this quite, quite well. And what I've seen working quite well is creating shadow spaces for honest reflections. So there could be offsides, there could be anonymous check-ins that could be I, also, what I also used to do is take people on a walk and talk. So to get them out of the office, and just get them, go, go have a coffee with them or just have a take, take them on a walk, just to change the scenery and address topics from a different angle. also important modeling what feedback looks like up the chain. So as a middle manager, you can always. at least for your own team, set the standard. And status, we can even set a standard that's different than the standard that you are, that you are personally seeing. And then as a middle manager, that's a difficult one. But if you manage to really translate the founder feedback into something that the team can actually use, that is incredibly powerful. Paulina (37:04.922) And because as a mental manager, are not a relay point. You, the middle management usually is the culture's immune system. And that is what makes middle management also crucial and also very, very pressure, pressure position. Because middle managers have the power to create a different culture for their teams. And that requires their resilience and their strength to really buffer, not as in talk about the pressure that they are experiencing from the top. it is an incredibly difficult position to be in, but it can definitely pay off and it gives you the If you're really good at it, then I find it extremely satisfying if I manage to do that for my own team, to build a pocket of cultural excellence. Lars Nielsen (38:08.794) We have talked about this before, like being a middle manager where you kind of have to protect your team and you also have to protect the company vision and so on. Back to the founders. So if the founder won't change, can the culture still evolve? Paulina (38:36.124) evolve in terms of getting better. I don't think so because yes, can, you can build workarounds as a middle manager. can do things for your team and you can also shield it very, very much. But eventually the ceiling for the business is set by the low, by the lowest emotional maturity in the room. And if that is the founder, you're stuck. I always say you. always get the culture you deserve and you are setting the bar for every behavior by your own behavior. yeah, when the founder really won't change, it's gonna get, it's gonna be difficult. However, there is a pivot point. when the board or key investors start to intervene. And that is when truth telling becomes structurally backed. It's also when it's often too late, but because usually founders and investors and board members don't necessarily look closely at the culture. They usually just look at results and as long as they work, as long as they are well. well set up. They probably wanted to be. Lars Nielsen (40:10.21) And what's the most effective, I'm do this in quotation marks, what's the most effective repair ritual you have seen in a founder led team? Paulina (40:23.914) I've seen an entire management team. getting up on stage at a leadership retreat and acknowledging that they've made crucial mistakes in the past that hurt the team's trust and the leadership team's trust. And that they acknowledge the full responsibility for that. And that they are here today not to talk about the past and to defend the past mistakes that they've made. but they are there to listen and rebuild the culture together. Paulina (41:12.17) So you're real vulnerability and zero defensiveness. And then they followed through with really listening at that retreat and really taking everything in and asking in-depth questions and really trying to figure out what they can do better in the future. And they actually followed up with change behavior, which is, which is an incredible feat to do. So I was in. I was really, really impressed. And then they started bringing in trainings and all sorts of things to just ensure that, that this new behavior would stick, not just for them, but for the entire team. So for me, and I think we talked about it last week or the week before, repair isn't about saying, sorry, it's about showing you're willing to grow. even when it's uncomfortable and then actually following through on that. So actually changing your behavior and not just apologizing. Lars Nielsen (42:20.152) And if, let's say you're kind of like the guardian angel of a founder, you're sitting on the shoulder as a guardian angel should do. So if you could whisper one sentence into every founder's ear about culture, what would it be? Paulina (42:25.61) you Paulina (42:31.722) you Paulina (42:45.93) I like that question. It was definitely one sentence only. Okay, then I'll make it a long sentence. You will get the culture that you deserve and if your team walks on axials around you, then your vision won't survive you. Lars Nielsen (42:59.203) Nope. Lars Nielsen (43:15.35) a good one. I actually I like the opening. You get the culture you deserve. Paulina (43:18.932) You Lars Nielsen (43:23.182) I'm going to take that in. I'm going to take that in with everything I've built from now on. Okay. Closing question for today. What's the biggest takeaway you want listeners to remember from this conversation? Paulina (43:29.386) I like that. Paulina (43:43.966) That culture isn't what you preach. It's what happens and what people say when you leave the room. If you're a founder, your job isn't to control the culture, it is to outgrow your own limitations fast enough so that others can thrive beside you. Lars Nielsen (44:11.341) And I think that is the perfect way to end today's episode. Thank you everybody for listening into Cultures from Hell. Pauline, before we sign off, please tell everybody where they can reach you, if they have any questions, who want to know more about Culture Co Foundation, or if they want to be a guest on our podcast. Paulina (44:32.714) and Paulina (44:38.228) Yes, which we always love. We always love to tell your stories. and so you can find me either at culture code foundation.com where you also can find out more about my business and you can find both the culture code foundation and myself on LinkedIn. As always, will link all the social media handles in the show notes. And if this episode hit close to home, you can ask yourself. Lars Nielsen (44:42.946) Paulina (45:06.716) Is my team walking on eggshells around me? If that answer is yes, might be time to reach out to me. Lars Nielsen (45:18.318) Okay. Thank you everybody for listening to Cultures from Health. We'll see you next week. Paulina (45:28.591) Exactly. Thanks everyone and thank you, Lars.