Workplaces as Emotional Classrooms: How We Grow or Shrink

Lars Nielsen (00:01.3) Hey Paulina! Paulina (00:02.992) Hey Lars! Lars Nielsen (00:04.878) How we doing? Paulina (00:06.736) Honestly, I'm so sore. I went to the gym yesterday and it was shoulders day. Jesus, I can barely move. Lars Nielsen (00:21.196) I missed the gym. I've been sick almost for a week. So we're actually recording this later than usual. And I would say it's my excuse for my sound or my voice sounding like this. But my girlfriend threw like an insane party this weekend. So that might also be a reason for my throat being a little bit sore. was crazy. It was like, you know, Paulina (00:43.592) Maybe. Lars Nielsen (00:49.986) They sent this disco ball in the living room. There was a DJ, a professional DJ. There was a bartender that was free all night. It was insane. Paulina (00:55.248) Wow. Paulina (01:02.556) Wow, that sounds like an amazing party. Let's see if our party next this weekend can actually match up to that. Lars Nielsen (01:09.688) Yes, because I'm actually driving to Germany on Thursday to join your birthday party. Paulina (01:15.086) Exactly. Exactly. so there's also going to be an open bar, but no DJ. But I think we covered the most important base. Lars Nielsen (01:25.398) Yeah, and we're actually going to record the next podcast. I'm going to record from a hotel room in Berlin because we're doing a stop on the way down. I'm looking forward to this. Paulina (01:36.474) Nice, nice. we're gonna, so it's not gonna be in person, but at least we're both gonna be in Germany when we, when we're in the same country when we record it. Lars Nielsen (01:47.052) We're going to be in the same country when we do that. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Are we, are we ready for today's podcast episode? Paulina (01:57.124) As, as always, absolutely. Let's do this. Lars Nielsen (02:01.13) Let's do this. Hello everybody and welcome back to Cultures from Hell. My name is Lars and today we're exploring how our workplaces act as emotional classrooms. Places where we either grow into fuller versions of ourselves or slowly shrink under pressure. My co-host and guest as always Pauline from the Culture Code Foundation joins me to unpack how everyday work interactions shape emotional intelligence for better or for worse, and how leaders and teams can turn daily friction into fuel for growth. Hey, Pauline. Paulina (02:55.016) Hey Lars. Thanks for doing this today. I know you're still not feeling super, super well, so I really appreciate it. You're showing up. Lars Nielsen (03:01.998) It's a way for me getting out of bed, so it might not be that bad. Okay, let's dive straight into it. Paulina, what's something small that made you feel emotionally seen at work recently? Paulina (03:07.195) Hahaha Paulina (03:14.587) sleep. Paulina (03:23.96) small thing I would say, so this wasn't a colleague for me, but it was actually someone who was attending one of the workshops I was running. I was junior person and they posted a workshop that I was doing. And, told me that, told me thanks for not steamrolling over that silence. So it really gave him space to process his thoughts and didn't allow anyone to, to break this. Lars Nielsen (03:33.486) Mm-hmm. Paulina (03:53.929) thought process or the silence that he needed. And he really appreciated that. And he said so out loud in public. and there was a really beautiful moment because it showed me once again, that a culture that rewards speed can still hold that space for people to process what they want to say or what they want to think or do. So even if it's just five seconds, that can really feel revolutionary to people and really appreciative. Lars Nielsen (04:30.732) And I think that's actually, I think it's a very important lesson here. Also because I think everybody knows that silence can be so awkward, right? And then just giving that space to other people to reflect off what they actually want to say. That's very good point, a very beautiful opening. Thank you very much. Paulina (04:41.895) Yes. Paulina (04:53.382) Yeah. And I did sorry, just to, just to add to this, it as actually, it has some magic to it. If you are capable of sitting in the silence, if you're capable of holding that uncomfortable situation, especially if you're a leader, you will be surprised how much more will come out of your team members. If you don't use that as a threatening move, but rather as an, okay, you really. Just process it. I'm here, I'm listening, I take the time. It's really beautiful. Lars Nielsen (05:30.814) And back to today's topic, if your current workplace and yourself employed with the Cultural Foundation, but if your current workplace was a classroom, what subject would it be teaching you? Paulina (05:47.155) Well, so I will extend this actually to my work with my customers because as you said, I'm self-employed. So for me, the biggest lesson is basically what I learn when I'm working with my customers. And that is emotional pattern recognition 101 would be my classroom call, classroom name. So this stuff that we usually label as tension. and which is often a loop which when repeating for years and years and years. So my job now is to recognize and catch these loops really early, both in myself, obviously, and others, and rewire them with intention instead of instinct. So quick, quick story. I just did a, I just did a customer workshop the other day, just last week and When I was preparing the workshop, felt super confident. was like, yeah, okay. I've done this multiple times. I just know what I'm doing. And then I reviewed the attendance list and there were multiple, very experienced older men in the workshop. And I recognized within myself that I started to get, subconscious about this. was like, but they've been leading teams for so long and they are so experienced and what What else, how could I possibly tell them anything new that they don't know yet? So I got really worried about holding this workshop. And I realized that pattern that as soon as there are older people in the room, more experienced people in the room, especially if they are men, I tend to underestimate the value that I bring to the table. And I really, it was an interesting thing to watch myself and then to, course correct and tell myself and really go in the workshop with the right intention saying, okay, I'll teach you what I have to teach. And I'm sure even though you're experienced, super experienced, I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of things that I can teach you and that you haven't heard yet. And that turned out to be true. So that was really beautiful to catch that, catch myself in this emotional pattern. Lars Nielsen (08:10.09) I think that's a very important skill to have, to be able to self-reflect when you go into patterns, because we all have them, and they can be both positive patterns and negative patterns, and we all have them, no matter how much we work with ourselves, we are actually based on patterns, whatever we do, but be able to self-reflect on them and say, okay, I moved into a pattern here that... Paulina (08:17.21) Hmm. Paulina (08:21.384) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (08:40.874) normally has like a negative spin to it, maybe I should change that pattern. Paulina (08:45.176) Exactly. Exactly. couldn't be, you couldn't be more right. I think self-reflection part is the most important thing that any one of us can learn. And, but I'll talk about this later. Lars Nielsen (08:56.62) Yes, we will. Okay, important question here, and I love this one. Would you rather work in a team that challenges you or constantly, sorry, would you rather, okay, I'm gonna put a pin in that one. Lars Nielsen (09:16.32) Okay, important question here. And I love this one. Would you rather work in a team that challenges you constantly or one that completely supports you and why? Paulina (09:31.187) who that's a difficult one. depends a little bit on the, on the context, right? So if the challenge is done with respect, then I'll definitely opt for that one because for me, emotional safety does not mean comfort. And some of my most profound growth moments came from things that I want or conversations that I wanted to avoid. So Lars Nielsen (09:38.569) Mm-hmm. Paulina (09:59.977) From my perspective, the best teams actually do both. They call you out and have your back. And I do, that is something that I preach to all of my customers. If you are unable to have constructive conflict or respectful challenges within your team, then you will not produce your best results. So clearly it's not about, it's not about being personal at in any, in any form or shape. but it's really about challenging, that actually the best solution? Is that the best possible viewpoint? Is there something that you're missing and so on. And so, yeah, let's take the challenge. Lars Nielsen (10:44.588) Let's take the challenge, and I couldn't agree more. What do you mean when you describe workplaces as emotional classrooms? Paulina (10:54.984) Well, we as humans never leave our emotions at home. We might dress them up in a different language that we find more business appropriate, but work or especially precious situations definitely expose our default coping patterns. And so for example, how we deal with rejection or ambiguity or control. And that actually, if you are self-aware, if you're self-reflective, you can turn every day into a lesson. And that brings me back to what you said, right? Reflecting your own patterns. That is when you can actually grow from your unconscious behaviors or your default coping patterns. if you truly, honestly reflect your own actions and your own patterns, then you can learn to really respond better. If you don't, you would simply reinforce those patterns. Lars Nielsen (12:09.018) And I think I've mentioned this a couple of times, you know, show that I'm, let's just be honest and say that I'm deeply dependent on my training. And for me, it's the same thing, you know, when I go down and I have to, let's say I want to go really heavy in a squat. And for me actually to be able to recognize my patterns, and I'm doing this in quotation marks for everybody not watching the video. So looking at my patterns, how my feet position is, how my hips are, how much I lean back, how much I lean forward, how I place the barbell on my back and so on. That having the ability to actually recognize those patterns and adjust them just a little bit each time to see if you become Paulina (12:38.12) Hmm. Lars Nielsen (13:03.298) better at what you're doing. I think that transforms really well into how I actually want to be as a person in real life, right? Paulina (13:12.102) Nice. Yeah, that's a really good point. And it's a public clickable to every to basically every situation in life. So it's a skill, I think it's a skill that it doesn't just help you at work, it will help you in all of your personal areas as well. Lars Nielsen (13:19.19) It's applicable. That was the word I was looking for. Thank you. Lars Nielsen (13:36.253) 100%. I love it when my girlfriend, she's really good at like, she works with patents. That's her kind of what she does for a living. Mostly target kids, but I think that applies to adults as well. And she calls me out every time I have a negative patent. just like, no, wrapped up or anything. She just calls me out and say like, hey, maybe you should work on this. Paulina (13:56.647) Nice. Lars Nielsen (14:03.84) And I love it because it just really moves me forward all times. Yeah, constantly. Paulina (14:04.194) Nice. Paulina (14:08.52) Constantly. Yeah. And to be honest, I mean, I've known you for such a long time and you, I've, I've met your girlfriend and she's amazing. And I think she's really supporting your growth so, so much because of that, because she's calling you out because she doesn't give you an out and she just doesn't allow you to hide behind your BS. Right. And I mean, Lars Nielsen (14:34.332) yes. Paulina (14:37.052) you are not a spring chicken and the fact how well you absorb that feedback and how much you are willing and able to change at your age. Honestly, I'm incredibly impressed by you. Lars Nielsen (14:51.182) And hey, let's just call and I can do this. I'm a male. I can call out all men if I want to. She constantly says to me like that one of the things that she loves about who I am is she saying like as a man, like you're willing to listen and change. Paulina (14:59.346) Please do. Lars Nielsen (15:20.134) And in her experience, working with men and dating other men, of course, during her life, says that is so rare to find a man that doesn't just start defending himself and just like, hmm, maybe I can change here. So calling out all men, please listen to the women. They can really change you if you're willing to do it. And don't go into this. male BS like, I'm a man, I can do it. Okay, let's move on. is, I'm diving into a hole here. Yes. Paulina (15:54.057) It's a big topic, but I love the shout out. Thank you, Lars. Hallelujah to that cool shout out. yeah, let's move on. Lars Nielsen (16:04.91) And just one really important note to close this up. For me, being able to listen and change, do not make me less of a man. Actually, it actually changes that. Makes me more of a man. So, yeah. Okay. Paulina (16:18.876) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. That was a very important addition, and I couldn't agree more. Lars Nielsen (16:28.652) Okay, Pelle, back to the topic. Can you share a moment where work taught you a deep emotional lesson? Paulina (16:35.874) for sure. It's just the difficulty of picking anyone. There are so many, but maybe one from the earlier times of my career. So when I became a team lead for the very first time, I kept stepping into the role of the fixer, smoothing things over, picking up the slack, doing the operational work myself to lessen the burden on my team members. And I felt very noble doing that. Right. I was like, I'm really fixing everything for everyone. And over time I realized that not only was I burning myself out, but also I was really enabling bad behavior. So I very much had to learn that boundaries aren't a cold thing. They're actually very kind because I didn't just say no, but I started explaining why and I started, and I went into a coaching habit instead. So I helped other people grow instead of just fixing everything for them and keeping them in a limited state. And that is for me, one of the most important things you can do as a leader, forget your own brilliance and help to develop the brilliance of the others. in your team. That's your core role from my perspective. Lars Nielsen (18:10.508) very good part. And why do we underestimate the emotional learning that happens at work? Paulina (18:21.414) Because we, we treat emotions, especially in Germany, we treat emotions like a side dish. we pretend that it's something that you should handle at home or that you should leave at home. but the truth is if you want high performance, emotional friction, friction is part of all of that. Every tension, every awkward silence, every feedback loop is a live training session. And you need to take the time and the effort, or you don't need to, but if you want to have performing teams that are, actually like to show up, then you need, then you should definitely take the time to, to dig into those emotions with your team and into your own as well, because we are, performance and emotions are not separate things. They just belong together. So. Lars Nielsen (18:59.086) You Paulina (19:21.244) The real question is, are you paying attention to the things that are crucial to people's performance? Or are you pretending it's? Lars Nielsen (19:34.006) I would say emotions is like a side dish. I like that one. Paulina (19:35.048) Just unnecessary addition. That emotion is a side dish. Yeah. Lars Nielsen (19:43.136) Yeah, I can just picture the t-shirt. Paulina (19:45.746) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (19:49.55) Hey, maybe Pauline, just a note here. Don't tell the listeners. Maybe we should do like a side project where we do like emotional t-shirts or like... Paulina (20:00.293) Lars, I've had this idea for months, for months, where I thought, okay, we need to, that would be so fun if we had like those statement t shirts that we would wear during the recording. Lars Nielsen (20:03.419) Ha Lars Nielsen (20:13.29) Yes, you know how easy it is to set up like a dropshipping website today. Paulina (20:18.128) I know, I know, but I also know how busy both of us are and I thought maybe... Lars Nielsen (20:22.886) yes. Let's do another project. Paulina (20:29.608) Seriously, I've been thinking about this for months. I already have a collection of statements that I want to print on t-shirts or jumpers. Lars Nielsen (20:39.63) Okay, let's continue. Yes. Paulina (20:41.0) Next project for Paulina and Loris because we don't have enough things going on in our lives already. Lars Nielsen (20:48.91) you Paulina (20:51.464) you Lars Nielsen (20:51.552) Okay, Paulina, when you say emotional growth, what does that look like in a day-to-day setting? Paulina (21:01.116) Well, the first step for me again, is the self reflection part to really stop and catch yourself in the moment. What is going on here? And why am I reacting the way I am reacting? Then the second part, obviously, because we don't want to do analysis paralysis, right? We don't want to just analyze what we're doing, but we actually want to bring this to life. So the next step clearly is a behavioral shift. Like For example, choosing a question over a defense, choosing a short pause, which can be a deep breath before you shooting back emotionally. Just really, you know, take a deep breath, let it sink in and use that little pause to distance yourself slightly from your trigger and then respond in a more relational building kind of way. Next step is a language upgrade. So for example, if you say, need clarity that lands completely different than when you say, this is all super chaotic. Right. Obviously it's not just the wording itself, but also how you, how you speak. So that's, that's an important one. And then I would say the last one is micro recoveries. So. For example, when you make, you set new behavior standards for you and your language behaviors, and then you might catch yourself in, I've done it wrong again. I've done it the old way. Then don't make yourself shrink, but actually insist on bouncing back faster. So, because growth isn't always loud, right? Sometimes it's the moment, when you do realize I've fallen back into old ways. So, and then have that reminder to do it differently again tomorrow. Lars Nielsen (23:13.55) And what kinds of workplace experience make people grow emotionally and then what kind makes them shrink? So what builds you up or what tears you down? Paulina (23:26.727) Yeah. Paulina (23:30.214) The growth part requires feeling challenged and safe. So both of that. I don't know if I've ever painted this word picture and for those who are watching this, I'm using my hands here. you say that there are three cycles when it comes to your emotional safety area. And the innermost circle is the comfort zone, right? And then the biggest circle around that is the learning zone. And the biggest circle outside of the learning zone is the fear zone. And you do obviously only grow in the growth zone, right? And the growth zone can become bigger and bigger and bigger the more you actively inscribe yourself to personal growth. And so, and the growth only happens when we do challenged. Otherwise we're in the comfort zone where no growth or no evolution will happen. So it is important as a team to invite dissent and value repair as well. And we've talked about this a couple of episodes before. And the shrinkage part on the other side is either when you're in the fear zone all the time, because in the fear zone, you just don't operate really well and you just feel scared all the time. And that is not, you cannot grow when you feel scared. And that's also one of the reasons why it's such a big illusion that pressure and cracking the whip is doing anything for performance. No, it will actually hinder performance, but that's the whole topic, but in and of itself. So either when you're in the fear zone, then you're shrinking or when your silence is punished or when people feel like they have to perform wellness instead of expressing reality, which usually tends to go hand in hand with being in the future if we're honest, but yeah. Lars Nielsen (25:40.607) And can emotional regression at work, can that be reversed? Paulina (25:46.353) Absolutely. But only if someone names it because emotional regression often looks like sarcasm, checked out behavior or passive aggression. When a leader says, hey, I noticed a shift in your behavior, what's going on? That can reopen the door to trust. Or also if you as a leader realize that you've made a mistake yourself, that you've breached expectations that are set towards you as a manager, or if you've treated your people in an untrusting way. And when you own that, really stand up in front of the people and say, okay, I F this up and I apologize. And here's what I'm going to do differently as of tomorrow, that all of those reopen the door to trust. And so the first step always is neither, both if you see it in your team members and if you see it in yourself. Don't pretend not to notice. Actively notice it and speak up about it. Lars Nielsen (26:54.848) And if we think of teams as collective emotional systems, what does it take to keep that system healthy? Paulina (27:06.066) I like the, in this context, I really like the picture of an immune system because this team set up just as much as any immune system needs regular reflection rituals. It needs a shared language for attention and it needs a culture of ownership. So not outsourcing emotional labor to HR or the empaths in the room. You really treat. the health of your team as a distributed responsibility that you as a leader are obviously leading, but you're not the only one responsible for it. It's teamwork, Like as in the immune system, a lot of different pieces and parts and puzzle pieces are working together to keep you healthy. Lars Nielsen (28:01.472) And then how can feedback or conflict become a learning moment instead of a threat in a team? Paulina (28:10.77) Well, as soon as you reframe feedback as a mirror and not a verdict. And so I teach teams to start with, here's what I observed. Here's how it impacted me. And here's what I'm curious about. Paulina (28:33.724) Because that completely takes away this attack. You did something wrong. This is my perspective. And here's the curiosity moment. And the curiosity lowers the threat level for the person that receives the feedback. And if a conflict happens, the question can then be, what's the upgrade we've been asked to make us? as a team. Lars Nielsen (29:07.046) And let me just once again bring in my beautiful girlfriend in the conversation here. Because this is something she always says, like when I come to her and let's say I'm annoyed by a person or somebody said something to me and so on. She always said to me, like she looks at me straight in the eyes and she says either like, I'm curious about... Paulina (29:11.506) Hahahaha Lars Nielsen (29:34.642) What triggers you to have this emotion? Or I'm curious about this person that annoys you. Why do they react or why do they speak to you in that tone or that state or whatever, right? So she really is trying to implement that curiosity in everything, especially things that triggers me. Paulina (29:50.909) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (30:04.942) And again, I'm gonna be very honest here. In the beginning, it annoyed the hell out of me. Paulina (30:12.648) I can't imagine, yeah. That's the way most men react. Lars Nielsen (30:14.574) And I was like, yeah, because I was like, I'm coming here and say that this person said this and it bothers me and just listen to me. I don't want to talk more about it, right? But then over time... Paulina (30:29.158) And why are you not on my side? are you on the other person? You sound like you're on the other person's side, right? Lars Nielsen (30:33.068) Yes, yes, come to my side of the bridge, right? But as she kept going and then being persisting about like having to change my mindset about this, it just learns me, learns so much about like, hmm, but Paulina said this and this triggered me. Why did it trigger me? And should I work with myself on this? Paulina (30:37.148) Yes. Lars Nielsen (31:03.072) Or should I voice it towards Pauline and say like, when you say this, it triggers me because of this and this and this. And I've just learned in so many cases that my relationship with other people gets so much better. Paulina (31:18.642) guess. Absolutely. I think Lars Nielsen (31:20.95) And I also learned that even though if it's a stranger just saying like, when you say that to me, it triggers me because of this and this and this. And people just like, I'm sorry. And then you actually have a conversation about that going on and everybody just feels more comfortable about the conversation going forward after that. Paulina (31:43.73) Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. It's, and it is, Every, especially at work, Every interaction needs a relational basis. And that doesn't mean you have to be in love with everyone that you work with, right? Obviously, or that you have to tell them how amazing they are all the time. But if you want to have a difficult conversation with them, doesn't even have to be conflict, but difficult conversation. Lars Nielsen (31:54.03) Mm-hmm. Paulina (32:18.94) You need to make sure that you have an emotional bridge that you can build on. And that happens through this curiosity. It happens through, okay, this is the impact that it has on me. What do I need to learn? Or what is your perspective here? And I love that you're doing that. And obviously I very much hope that your example of me having done or said something that triggered you. Lars Nielsen (32:23.542) Mm-hmm. Paulina (32:47.75) was either a fictional example or it was something that we're going to address because I couldn't agree more. love people bringing up things like this openly, transparently, because we are all humans, right? We F up all the time. And but most of the time it's not out of bad intent or ill intent. And if I know what's going on or what my how I might've heard somebody that I care about, then I can start, I can work on repairing that. But if I, if it's not out in the open, resentment can build up and that over time will destroy every friendship, every relationship. So find a way to communicate it in a non-threatening, non-attack kind of way. And you'll improve all of your relationships. You're so, so right, Lars. And once again, your girlfriend, she is freaking amazing. Lars Nielsen (33:25.592) huh. Lars Nielsen (33:45.954) Hahaha! Paulina (33:47.048) keep telling all of our listeners out there, I keep telling Lars that I'm not sure who between him and his girlfriend I actually like more now. Lars Nielsen (33:57.098) Yeah, yeah, after you met her, you were like being in doubt that you've known me for like, how long? Five years? And after just sitting down with my girlfriend for 30 minutes? Hmm, I need to reconsider who I like the most. Paulina (34:02.364) Five years? Five years? Paulina (34:07.292) Ha ha ha! Paulina (34:11.642) You just picked exceptionally well. Lars Nielsen (34:14.986) Yes, I did. I know. Okay, back to the topic. How does it feel if you have this experience and I bet you do. How does it feel to witness somebody transform or shut down in a work setting? Paulina (34:34.684) It's actually an example that's not very long ago. So I witnessed in during workshop, someone shut down mid discussion. So they were pretty involved at the beginning of the discussion. And then they got more silent and more silent and more silent. And then they were basically just sitting there with their arms crossed and not react, not even reacting anymore. So I took that person aside during a break and I learned that they felt really misunderstood by their manager and were actually didn't feel like they could express their viewpoint in a way that would make their manager listen and understand. And after that, after hearing that, That helped me so, much to suddenly redirect the flow of the workshop, gave them space to speak, support their arguments or their viewpoint. And it actually changed the tone of the entire workshop for everyone. And I could see that person really come back to life in a way it's that's a bit of an overstatement, but they were getting more and more engaged. throughout the afternoon of the workshop and that was really beautiful to see. So witnessing someone re-engaged after being hurt, that's, let's put it very boldly, that's emotionally, emotional magic for me to see that. Lars Nielsen (36:24.586) And you talk about like growth rituals and team debriefs. And we have done this in multiple shows, multiple episodes. Let's call it a show. sounds much better. So you talk about growth rituals and team debriefs. What do those look like in practice? Paulina (36:29.128) Mm-hmm. Paulina (36:45.448) So one of my favorite ones is the daily reflection part where you really reassess yourself at the beginning of the day. So you set an intention for the day. How do I want to show up for my team today? And at the end of the day, you reflect for a couple of minutes, just two or three minutes. Did I actually live up to my own standards? Did I live up to my own expectations and what can I do better tomorrow? So that is a super powerful tool. And the other one, especially when it comes to the team is the Hulk meeting. And I've definitely discussed this one in more depth in one of our earlier episodes, which is safe venting space with structure. So step one is everyone names what frustrates them. No filter, no fixing, no judgment. And the second step is once everything has been surfaced, we will switch to what can we learn from this? What do we want to shift? What can we influence here to, to make it better? And that is really basic, but it's also very reflective and it is strategic and it turns the frustration into strategic work that you can do together with the team. And yes, people actually love it. Lars Nielsen (38:09.678) If someone's noticing emotional fatigue in the team, what's the first small thing they can do? Paulina (38:20.486) I would always start with the question, what's something that we are not naming right now? Because fatigue often comes from emotional backlog. And when we name the elephant, then the team can start to breathe again. And it doesn't have to, you can also have them on the personal level, right? Or on the one-on-one level. Even 10 minutes of truth telling really can reset an entire week, potentially. Lars Nielsen (38:50.848) And how can leaders model emotional learning about without making it feel forced or doing this in quotation marks, therapeutic? Paulina (39:04.552) Uh, I would say the best way forward here is to narrate your own learning. For example, last week I handled the situation X, Epsilon Y badly. I apologize for that. The apologize part only if you've impacted someone negatively. Otherwise you don't need to apologize, but you can still say, okay, I handled this situation badly. And here's what I've learned from that and what I will definitely do differently now. And then you showcase that changed behavior. And for me, that's definitely not therapy. That's leadership, self leadership, first of all, and team leadership as well. And self leadership, because you catch yourself in the moment, you have recognized your pattern, you are sharing your learning, et cetera. So, Lars Nielsen (40:00.206) Mm-hmm. Paulina (40:00.905) ability without strategy is oversharing. Let me be super, super clear here. But vulnerability with intent, that's role modeling. And that is actually something that can help other people grow. Lars Nielsen (40:21.802) And what questions can teams, let's do that multiple, my God, multiple, thank you very much. I think my code is getting to my brain. What questions can teams ask themselves after a hard work to kind of reflect and reset? Paulina (40:28.956) Multiple? Paulina (40:42.93) Hmm. Hmm. So again, I'm a huge fan of self-reflection and the team can either do, so if you train your team to do this either individually or on a team level, you can do this. I personally had included those questions in my one-on-ones with my teams, team members. So I would ask them what drained you this week and why. But if you're asking yourself that question, obviously you would phrase it, what drained me this week and why? Where did I surprise myself in a good way? And what do I want to do differently next week? So this super short exercise shouldn't take you more than two or three minutes. It is super honest. It is repeatable and it's non-judgmental. Lars Nielsen (41:37.774) And what's a common myth about emotional intelligence at work that you wish we'd retire? Paulina (41:37.786) It's tough. Paulina (41:50.233) definitely that emotional intelligence means being nice because for me real emotional intelligence can also mean saying I won't take this on for you but I'll help you think through it. So it is more about really feeling into the specific situation needs. I also want to, I want to state that compassion without boundaries or compassion without awareness becomes manipulation. either you start manipulating your team. If you, if you don't have those boundaries and the self reflection, or you can be manipulated yourself. For example, if you're not aware of your unconscious bias, then, but your team might be. So for example, we all tend to, trust people more that are more like us ourselves. And if people know that, then they could use that against you in some way or form. If you are not aware of that, but they are. So definitely emotional intelligence. is a muscle that needs to be trained constantly. And that requires you to reflect yourself all the time, superstitions, your biases, your underlying assumptions, your reactions and your own emotions all the time. You need to put them under the microscope and analyze it over and over and over and over again. And then you'll get really strong at it. Lars Nielsen (43:43.326) And do you think an organization sometimes uses a, let's call it EQ, emotional intelligence, language to avoid deeper change? Paulina (43:54.079) yeah, absolutely. I think that happens quite regularly because people rationally understand how important it is, but don't really know how to live it or how to access it. And because we're not usually not trained to do so, right? Especially men in our generation or both yours and my generation were brought up in a way that you shouldn't really show emotions, right? You shouldn't except for maybe football joy or, or anger, those usually are very valid emotions for men in our in our generations. And if you if you're not trying, if you're not trained to express your emotions, obviously, you're also not trained on how to recognize them within others, you're not trained in how to respond to that, right? So People rationally understand it's important, but they don't know how to actually do it. And I once actually worked with a startup where the founders help monthly listening circles. But never changed anything. they would just sit there, listen to people, not implement any of the things that, that were mentioned. So people just felt gaslit or not take seriously. And so if you have emotional rituals like that without actually following through on any structural change, that equals emotional performativity. Lars Nielsen (45:31.062) And then what does genuine emotional learning look like? Or not just performative empathy rates? Paulina (45:43.026) What? Accountability. If it's the manager who admits that they got defensive and reopens the conversations. It's the team that rewrites a process based on how it made someone feel, not just what it produced. Empathy without action is definitely not a growth factor. Lars Nielsen (46:15.15) As always Pauline, I think we've been recording for like 45 minutes, almost an hour now. And everything just, yeah, it just runs so quickly when we do this. Maybe we should start doing like two hour sessions or something like that. Paulina (46:20.625) Yeah. Paulina (46:24.998) Yes. Paulina (46:30.428) Ha ha ha! Lars Nielsen (46:33.326) We are coming to an end and as always Pauline, we want to encourage our listeners to kind of reach out to you or me if they want to reach out to you if they have any questions about like company culture and so on. So please inform them where can people reach out and find out more about you and also the Culture Code Foundation. Paulina (46:55.876) Well, you can always visit us at caltechodefoundation.com or connect directly with me on LinkedIn. We will, as always, share all the social media links in the show notes. Lars Nielsen (47:07.63) Perfect. And if the listeners could take one emotional reflection prompt into their workday tomorrow, what would it be? Paulina (47:18.604) I would say ask yourself the question, where did I. Paulina (47:28.88) react based on a trigger today? And how could I do this differently tomorrow? Lars Nielsen (47:39.608) Perfect. And listeners, that's it for today's episode of Cultures from Hell. Remember, every meeting, every bit of friction, every feedback moment is part of your emotional curriculum. If you like this episode, follow Cultures from Hell and connect Pauline and the Culture Code Foundation on LinkedIn or on Instagram. And like you said, Pauline, we're going to put all links in the show notes. So please don't hesitate to reach out if you have any questions or if you anonymously or anonymously want to participate in our podcast. Have a great day everybody. Paulina (48:21.619) Thanks. Have a good one. Cheers.