What Happens When Nobody Apologizes?

Lars Nielsen (00:01.276) Hey Paulina! Paulina (00:03.022) Good morning Lars, welcome to Germany! Lars Nielsen (00:06.622) I was just about to ask if you know where I'm sitting at the moment. I am in Germany, I'm in Berlin. Paulina (00:15.956) Yes, I'm so happy for you, you're gonna have so much fun! Lars Nielsen (00:17.522) and Yes, and I was walking around Berlin yesterday when we arrived about 4 or 5 pm or something like that. And the big difference or one of the big difference between Copenhagen and Berlin, because they're very similar in so many ways, but one of the big differences is that you have trees on every street, like the streets all over, like all down the streets and so on. Paulina (00:44.994) Yeah, that's true. Lars Nielsen (00:46.876) And because we are recording on the 17th of October in the fall, you just see all these beautiful colors. know, the leaves are coming down, yellow, green, brown. It's so beautiful. I love it. I love it. Paulina (00:58.638) Hmm. Paulina (01:04.774) that's amazing. I mean, you're driving to Leipzig tomorrow, right? So if you do have some time to walk around in Leipzig, because Leipzig is even greener than Berlin. Leipzig has so much parks and most streets also have the trees there and all around Leipzig there is so much green. Since you're coming with the car, you could maybe stop at one of the lakes. Lars Nielsen (01:10.13) Yes, we are. Lars Nielsen (01:17.373) Okay. Paulina (01:33.518) because we have 27 lakes around the city. So that's really, really cool. So there's even more greenery. But I always thought that Copenhagen Berlin are quite different actually. So I'm super interested in the similarities that you see. Lars Nielsen (01:52.148) I think it's just like a kind of the mentality of people, I think, and like the vibrance of the center and so on. Because they are very different because Berlin was pretty much rebuilt after the Second World War, right? And Koblenz has so many, like hundreds of years of the buildings. I think the building I live in is like 150 years old or something like that. Paulina (01:59.118) yeah, okay. Yeah, that's it. Lars Nielsen (02:17.97) So in that way it's very different. But I think it's just a vibe and the culture and people and how people behave and so on. think that's very similar. Paulina (02:29.686) That's a very valid point. For me the biggest difference is the cleanliness of the two series. Lars Nielsen (02:35.443) yes Copenhagen is very clean. It's extremely clean. That is a good point. I think I don't notice it as a Dane because it's just taken for granted, right? Yeah. Okay, Paulina, are we ready to roll for today's episode? Paulina (02:38.382) Yeah. Paulina (02:47.118) Yep. Paulina (02:55.167) Yes. Lars Nielsen (02:58.398) Hello everybody and welcome back to Cultures from Hell. This is the podcast where we explore the messy, fascinating and deeply human side of workplace culture. I'm your host Lars and with me as always is Paulina, co-host and co-founder of the Culture Code Foundation. And today we are asking a deceptively simple question. What happens when nobody apologizes? Because in the absence of accountability, what fills the gap in resentment or is resentment? Paulina (03:40.942) Hmm. Lars Nielsen (03:42.404) And Paulina, before we deep or go into the deep end of the pool here, what's something you've recently seen at work or in your work with the College of Co-Foundation that made you think, hmm, that could have used an apology? Paulina (04:04.64) I, where do I start? Maybe first of all, I really, really enjoyed how you put it to say apology equals accountability because that is so true. And I've never heard it, heard anybody put it like quite like that. And it's so succinct. really nails it down. So thank you for that. And as to the story. I've had a few actually the last couple of weeks. Maybe the most fra-frapened one was I worked with a company recently where a senior leader derailed an entire meeting by publicly throwing a junior under the bus. No one stepped in because obviously they also didn't want to get involved in that situation. No one followed up as long as, to my recollection, nobody apologized. So I was in touch with the junior leader and they told me that. Then nobody had to apologize to them. I could really feel the temperature in the room drop by about 10 degrees. It was like It was really weird. And I was there just to observe. I was not there in a moderating function. Otherwise, I would have stepped in. But since it wasn't my role in that specific meeting, I did talk to the senior manager afterwards. And it was really difficult for him to see why his behavior was harming the person that he threw under the bus, but the entire team out there. And I could really sense that the team was quite disengaged after that happened. So it's actually a good thing that we're talking about this because I think I should really follow up on this one. I make sure that this goes into the right direction from here. Lars Nielsen (06:14.276) Damn. Paulina (06:23.822) Because that's the thing, right? When there is no apology and no repair, people don't just get over this kind of thing or situation. They will file it under, okay, I guess that's how things are being done around here. I need to be aware of that. I need to guard myself. And I guess you're going to know what I'm going to say now. That's deadly for trust. Lars Nielsen (06:52.308) Yes, so much. And would you rather work in a culture that apologizes too much or one that never does? I think I know the answer, but let's get it on recording. Paulina (07:07.538) I mean, to be fair, too much is fixable. A sorry overload is annoying and might also seem insincere for sure, but it does signal some level of awareness and humility. But a culture where no one ever apologizes, that usually goes really, really deep within a culture. That's where you get defensiveness, blame ping pong, and what I call emotional debt stacking. And the interest rate on that is just brutal. Lars Nielsen (07:48.114) Okay, so let's dig into this topic. What really happens when apology and accountability go missing? Paulina (07:58.669) Hmm? So when apologies vanish, then you will see two things starting to die, psychological safety and performance credibility. And I think we have mentioned before that trust, which comes from feeling psychologically safe, is the cornerstone for any result and any performance you want to see in the team. So the link is, I think, pretty clear here. And emotionally, people in those kinds of situations will go into self-protection mode. They will stop sharing ideas. They won't speak up when something's wrong. Because if no one owns mistakes, you better not be the one who makes one. And I want to be very clear here. It is not just about saying sorry. And I think we've discussed this just last week, right? The words at the end of the day mean nothing if they are not followed by actions. So the actual repair happens when you change your behavior that hurt people in the first place. If you don't do that, teams structurally become risk averse. Deadlines will slip, meetings will become political, and the energy will shift from how do we solve this to how do I not get blamed? And I've seen companies wasting days and weeks over the course of a year, just documenting their own actions so that they could be untouchable. Lars Nielsen (09:45.136) And what are some signs that a company has, and I'm going to do this in quotation marks, has normalized non-apologies? Paulina (09:59.055) Hmm. You'll often hear specific phrases. For example, let's just move on. We all make mistakes. Sorry if you felt that way because it, right? That is non-apology. The best non-apology ever. Sorry, made you feel that you felt that this wasn't appropriate. That you felt that... Lars Nielsen (10:14.504) Yeah. Paulina (10:28.026) or also there was miscommunication. All of those are definitely non-apologies because they avoid ownership and center the speaker's comfort, not the other person's experience. And over time, these microhertz pile up. I always have this picture of broken glass or broken china. that nobody clears away. So it really piles up. And for example, in one company that I've worked with years of this non-apology policy from top leaders created a kind of cultural numbness because you couldn't really, people couldn't be their selves anymore. And people even actually weren't angry anymore, just deeply unmotivated, like to the core. And that is actually worse. Because anger you can work with, apathy or completely dissociation, that's cultural rot. Lars Nielsen (11:33.52) And I'm just gonna bring my girlfriend into the conversation again. We were sitting in the car yesterday on our way to Berlin, right? And I can't remember because we started talking about narcissists in a relationship. Paulina (11:50.026) okay. Interesting story. Lars Nielsen (11:50.836) yes. I would get some context just for people on the podcast. My girlfriend works with similar things. So it's often something we talk about stuff like that. But a lot of the things that you're saying, like with the apologies, like let's just move on. We all make mistakes. Or if you felt that way and so on. A lot of that is actually traits from a narcissist. that they are able to do that, you know, to push it towards you. Yeah, turn it back on you, right? So it's just ringing so many bells in my head when you're saying that. Paulina (12:22.84) turn it back on you. Interesting. Paulina (12:32.03) Interesting, interesting. Lars Nielsen (12:35.024) Okay, so let's say no one ever says, I'm sorry, can a team still rebuild trust? Paulina (12:44.43) Yes, I very much believe so, but only if the repair of the trust becomes a behaviour. So you don't need the specific word, but you do need the action. That's what I said before, right? So take our after action reviews that we discussed so often here. If they are done right, they can be incredibly powerful. But here's the caveat. These and any kind of retrospective and any kind of action to building trust only work if the team has two conditions, which is a baseline trust and a shared norm that conflict always stays on the topic and never on the person. If you don't have those two... Paulina (13:49.035) Everything is gonna be soup that and you don't see an apology You will not be able to see any repair But I do I have seen teams heal without apology because someone took timely action for example like removing a toxic blocker from the pot project or and removing a brilliant jerk how I call them and say when you clearly, openly and visibly act in service of the team's health, that can speak much louder than any, I'm sorry. Lars Nielsen (14:31.172) Very good point there. And what does institutional repair look like compared to, in quotation mark, personal repair? Paulina (14:44.44) So a personal repair clearly is one-on-one. It's a check-in, it's a truth telling, a moment of empathy, and clear personal accountability for what has happened. Like I'm going to change my behavior. I will ensure that this is never going to happen again, what would hurt you. Institutional repair, on the other hand, is about designing trust into your systems through after actual reviews, through retrospectives, through feedback loops, through value-based decision protocols, one of my favorites. and one company that I've worked with has standing monthly pulse meeting where teams openly share frictions without names, just situations or actions. they call it the compost pile. Every time a hurt or mistake is named, they actually discuss what can grow from it. So I love that picture, right? You throw the shit on a big pile and see what can happen. And that's actually a really beautiful way of doing institutional repair. Also with like a little twinkle in the eye, you you don't have to take it too seriously. Just laughter and humor, as long as it's not sarcastic or hurting anyone in return, can be an incredibly powerful repair tool. Lars Nielsen (15:52.926) Mm-hmm. Paulina (16:20.118) if you can laugh together about things that went wrong. Lars Nielsen (16:22.684) And now I just have an image of a pile of shit in front of me, I love this. So what are the main apology archetypes you have seen? Yes, this is going to be fun. Paulina (16:30.382) you Paulina (16:39.17) Whoo, I love that question. Because that is a, this is really going to be fun. It's, it's a scarily accurate list, I would say. And do you know this trend on social media at the moment where you invent like, insult names for your colleague, co-workers that are not super obvious? I like for example, the lava lamp. for the colleagues that are pretty but useless. it's a thing. I at least get a lot of videos on this on social media at the moment. Lars Nielsen (17:18.644) I can honestly say that my feed is completely different. Paulina (17:26.334) Anyway, so what I've done, when I've compiled this list, I try to do it a little bit with a little bit like that. So I also invented fun names. So the first apology archetype is the ghost, because he disappears after conflict and pretends nothing has happened. And the root cause here that I usually see is conflict avoidance, shame, or complete self-unawareness. And the impact is he definitely leaves others holding the emotional bag and just, yeah, at least he pretends not to care. The rationalizer, that's one that you see a lot in business. he will justify everything instead of owning the harm that he's created. I was just being honest, don't blame me, blame the truth. I think we've all been there. That is clearly about ego protection and it makes the other person feel that their hurt has been unseen or overreactive. So that could also be one of those narcissistic traits that you talked about. Then we see the over-apologizer who says sorry five times in a row but doesn't change anything. That usually comes from people pleasing and own insecurities and obviously that erodes credibility over time and we've I said that at the beginning right if you never change anything then people will just not believe you anymore. We also see the blame shifter saying, well, you weren't clear. It's the system's fault, which clearly is a fear of accountability. I've actually seen something like that just the other day. We're a team member told the manager off for doing something. And then the manager was like, yeah, but I only did this because you did that. And then they were like, yeah, but I only did that because you did that. And I was like, my God. Paulina (19:50.05) I'm in a washing machine. Do do, washing machine of flame. Lars Nielsen (19:56.072) Yeah. Paulina (19:56.271) And as you can imagine, that this kind of behavior breaks team trust. Like if you drop a ways, right? And lastly, I would say we see the silent rebuilder, because they don't apologize, but actually start showing up differently. And that is action-based atonement. Lars Nielsen (20:05.436) Of course. Paulina (20:24.812) Which can be sometimes more effective than words because it is visible and consistent. However, I do appreciate the loud rebuilder who also can openly acknowledge, okay, I F that up. That's not going to happen again. And then do the visible and consistent change, change behavior. That's the, that's the ideal scenario. Not just in work life, by the way. Lars Nielsen (20:51.804) Yeah. Okay, so if someone out there like recognizes harm but can't express remorse, is there still a path to accountability? Paulina (21:11.03) Yes, absolutely. Like I just said, right? They need to make visible amends. That could look like shifting how they give feedback. That could mean publicly backing the person they hurt or inviting accountability from others. Silence without change is neglect. with change is a quiet kind of courage. But Lars Nielsen (21:15.604) Mm-hmm. Paulina (21:38.74) still needs acknowledgement to fully repair the trust. Lars Nielsen (21:44.56) And what are some repeatable practices teams can use? Let's get practical here. So yeah, is there any repeatable practices that they can implement out there? Paulina (21:59.171) Yes. And first of all, again, I want to say conflict is not something that you want to avoid. Constructive conflict is actually something that you want to see in your team because it will produce better results. Because it's important that teams challenge their opinions, right? And that they are passionate about fighting for their ideas. You want to see that. And then you want everyone obviously to actively commit to the joint decision and then stick to it. But so conflict isn't a bad thing. Conflict only becomes difficult if people get hurt. So in those instances where people got hurt for whatever reason, I would definitely recommend a conflict reset one-on-one, which can be a 20 minute check-in, about 48 hours of detention. because you need to pause a little bit to let everyone cool off and also to give you time to really prepare that conversation as a manager or leader. And what is super important in those meetings, stay focused on the relation. Don't talk about the topic itself. Talk about why the person felt hurt, tell, ask them what they need to move out of the situation and don't take any, especially if you're a leader, obviously those conflict reset one-on-ones can also happen between peers, right? That is a different power balance in those kinds of conversations. But generally speaking, try to focus only on one thing and on the person that got hurt. And yes, you obviously you can share your viewpoint, but be super, super careful not to Devalidate what the other person has experienced and to really own up to what you did even even if you had no bad intentions whatsoever Your intentions don't mean anything if they had an impact on the other person then you need to you can obviously say, okay, I didn't intend this Paulina (24:21.928) And not but because never say but. and I'm still really, really sorry that I've hurt your feelings. What can I do to fix this? What do you need from me to move on from here? Right. another ritual I really like is, like a red button kind of thing where any team member can call a repair timeout. Lars Nielsen (24:40.797) Mm-hmm. Paulina (24:51.01) So if you do have those conflict situations going on, this construct constructive conflict things, for example, and then somebody feels, no, this is coming to close. This is getting close. They can raise the hand or whatever signal you, come up with and call this repair time out. And then obviously follow through on that. And, I would also suggest to do monthly trust reviews where you don't focus on goals, but really to ask, okay, where are we as a team out of sync emotionally or on a trust level? And depending on the state of your team. So if you have high trust, like we had in our team at Sulfamate, right? Where we had a lot of high trust that can be done in a team setting. But if you have lower trust, then you should try to do this one-on-one or in smaller circles. because people will feel freer to open up. So repair is often quiet. It's usually not a Slack announcement. It's a side conversation. They, that says, for example, Hey, what I said last week landed weird. I want to go back and get back in sync, which is a super important signal telling you, you matter to me. It matters to me that we're in sync, that we don't live in conflict with each other. And I think this is so important these days. Lars Nielsen (26:30.58) And again, back to like, we were sitting in the car for like six hours yesterday, or we were together six hours. So we had a lot of interesting conversations. And we actually touched on that one last topic about like, if two people are in some kind of conflict, they haven't talked for, it could be one day, one week, one year, decade, whatever, is that you don't know how the other person feels. So both these parties might want to reach out and get back into sync again, right? So you need that olive branch. You need that one person that just hands out and say like, hey, let's get back in sync or hey, should we sit down and have a conversation, right? And I would say in nine out of 10 instances, I think the other person would just like... Paulina (27:05.516) Yeah. Yes. Lars Nielsen (27:28.596) Take a deep breath and say, thank you for that person to reach out so we can actually sit down because that initial reaching out is so hard for people. And that goes for me. Paulina (27:39.183) It is. And it usually is because we, are under this collective illusion that the people don't want the same things as us. I actually really highly recommend a podcast episode that I heard this week. It's from the Robin's podcast, where she has a conversation with a Harvard scientist called Ted, Ted Rose, I think. I'll link it up in the show notes. Lars Nielsen (27:50.962) Yeah. Paulina (28:07.976) where they discuss this. He has done like the biggest study ever on what people want and need and these days especially it feels like people want so different things and the funniest thing is because social media shifts the focus to the loudest voices in the room Everybody thinks that those loudest voices stand for what broader society wants in life. And the fact is that 80 % of content comes from 10 % of the people. So what you, what we hear and what we're confronted with all day long is basically the voice of the minority and not of the majority. And most people across the world all want the same thing. which is safety and good things to happen to their friends and family and to protect your friends and your family. Those, and to just live peacefully together. That is what most people across the world want. And then a place, so say, really listen to this episode because it gave me so much hope in humanity. It gave me so much hope back and optimism back. And... Lars Nielsen (29:31.43) And we all know who's the loudest voice in the room these days. I'm not gonna say. Paulina (29:35.55) bullies. It's always the bullies. It has always been the bullies and it still are the bullies. Lars Nielsen (29:40.597) We have a tough, we have a tough, we have a tough bully these days, Paulina (29:45.347) We have at least three top bullies, I would say. But yeah, I just wanted to, let me just close the loop, right? So if you don't, if you think I'm alone with needing an apology or I'm alone with needing that repair in this situation, you're most likely wrong because just as you said, the likelihood that the other person is going to be really relieved because you are taking the first step. Lars Nielsen (29:47.57) Yeah, okay, Good, good points. Okay, Felida. So... Paulina (30:15.47) is extremely high because the likelihood is really high that they actually want the exact same thing. Lars Nielsen (30:23.304) Good one. And like you said, we're gonna link it up in the show notes. Please everybody go listen. I have to listen to it now. yes, that could be very good actually. So what's one question every manager should ask after a conflict? Paulina (30:30.882) Yeah, you can listen to it on the drive to Leipzig. Paulina (30:45.134) What do you need from me to be able to move forward? That question clearly turns conflict into co-creation. Lars Nielsen (30:58.28) That's a very good one. I'm going to put a pin in that one. I need to say that more in my life. Okay. And what's one culture shift you love to see in how organizations handle apologies? Paulina (31:01.934) You Paulina (31:16.598) I'd love to see us all, not just in organizations, to stop treating apologies as an admission of failure. Real apologies for me are an incredibly strong signal of strength, not of weakness. And that is especially true when it comes from leaders, because it tells me I am more committed to repairing than to being right. Lars Nielsen (31:50.5) And again, I'm just thinking about one person I would love to hear that from. Okay, jokes aside. you could design a ritual for repair that every team practiced, let's say once a month, what would that be? Paulina (31:55.019) hehehehe Paulina (32:13.07) A low stakes conflict jam, maybe? So where everybody brings one small thing that bugged them that month and they practice it as a team to name that without any blame and receiving it without defensiveness. Imagine if every team would do that. How different our entire world would look like if people really learned in the workplace. how to give feedback without blaming anybody and how to receive it without defensiveness. that could be such a superpower. Because the goal isn't to solve anything here, right? It is just to normalize naming microtensions before they can actually turn toxic. I'm dreaming now. Lars Nielsen (33:04.626) Maybe we rename this podcast to the World Problem Solver podcast. Paulina (33:11.342) Jesus! How about we ask for the Nobel Peace Prize next year? Lars Nielsen (33:21.224) It sounds like these days that everybody can just reach out and say, I deserve it, right? That's gonna be us. No more peace price for her to the podcast called Just From Hull. That would be great. Okay, Paulina, we're getting to the end of this recording and I have to go out and enjoy Berlin. Beautiful, beautiful Berlin. Paulina (33:25.396) Exactly! Paulina (33:39.64) Yes. Lars Nielsen (33:45.906) So before we round up, can you just tell our listeners where can they go and follow your work? How can they reach out to you? And also if they want to be on the podcast, how do they contact you or me for that matter? Paulina (33:58.809) Well, can, the best way to reach out to me is LinkedIn. And you can also find me on Instagram. You can find the culture code foundation on LinkedIn and on culture code foundation.com. And obviously you can also read, if you want to be on the podcast, you can also reach out to Lars. We would love to have you on the show and we will put all the social media handles and the podcast recommendation in the show notes. Lars Nielsen (34:24.956) Yes, and if you want to be on the podcast, you can either come on the podcast or we can tell your story anonymously if that's what you're comfortable with. So please just reach out to us with any stories about company culture. We would love to share it on the podcast and tell those stories. I think actually that our next recording, we're to have a guest, right? Or am I mistaking? Paulina (34:49.256) And then the one after that. in two weeks, we'll have a live guest. Lars Nielsen (34:52.868) the one after that. yes, I'm looking forward to that one. OK, so in this conversation, we explored what happens when no one says sorry and how growth, trust and repair can still happen when accountability becomes a shared practice, not just a spoken word. Go follow Paulina on her, yeah, CultiCo Foundation on the website. Go on LinkedIn. Like you're saying Paulina, you're sharing some great like tips and tricks and so on, on LinkedIn. So please go follow and then we'll see everybody next week on the podcast. Thank you very much, Paulina. Paulina (35:31.424) Yes. Thank you Lars and enjoy your lunch. Lars Nielsen (35:35.774) Thank you, I'll see you tomorrow. Paulina (35:37.613) Yes!