Can failure lead to success in company culture?

Lars (00:17.39) Welcome back to Cultures from Hell. And for all the listeners that have been listening to all the other episodes, you can hear that my monster voice is gone when saying Cultures from Hell, because today I'm actually recording from my parents' house in the outskirts of Denmark. For all new listeners, my name is Lars and I am one of the two hosts on Cultures from Hell. And today we are tackling a topic that every company, big or small, has faced. Failure. But as a twist here, we're not just talking about what goes wrong. We're diving into how these missteps can become stepping stones to momentum. Okay. What is that word? Paulina (01:13.9) Monumental. Lars (01:15.332) monumental. Paulina (01:18.616) can also just say huge. Lars (01:18.75) You know that I'm starting to use reading class as rights. Paulina (01:25.396) No, I did not know that. Lars (01:27.493) Shit. Paulina (01:29.538) You can also say huge if that's easier for you. Lars (01:33.542) Yeah, let me do that. Lars (01:38.334) It's a tongue twister for me. Lars (01:44.603) Okay, let's do it again. Paulina (01:47.17) Yes. Lars (01:48.382) Third time is a charm. Lars (01:53.898) Welcome back to Cultures from Hell. And for all returning listeners, can hear that my monster voice is gone for today because I am actually recording from my parents' house in the outskirts of Denmark for this episode. And for all new listeners out there, my name is Lars. I'm one of the two hosts here on Cultures from Hell. And today we are tackling a topic that every company, big or small, has faced. Failure. But here's a twist. We're not just talking about what goes wrong. We're diving into how those missteps can become stepping stones to huge success. In this episode titled Breaking the Cycle, Turning Failure into Opportunity, we'll explore how companies can truly learn from their mistakes. And joining me today. As always, he's our resident expert on company culture and co-founder of Culture Code Foundation. Paulina, welcome back again. Paulina (03:01.752) Thank you, Lars. And I do miss the Monster Boys, but... Lars (03:05.886) Ha Paulina (03:08.384) It really feels like such an important part of the intro by now. Anyway, great to be talking to you even without the monster voice. Lars (03:12.356) Yes. Lars (03:18.66) And the monster will be back next week. He's taking his summer vacation this week. Paulina (03:21.646) Exactly. Fair enough, fair enough. He's deserved it. Lars (03:27.942) Yes, Paulina, it's great to have you back again on the show. When we talk about breaking the cycle, and I'm saying that in quotation marks for everybody that's just listening to the podcast, breaking the cycle of failure. What's the very first thing that comes to your mind in terms of like company culture? Paulina (03:51.128) The very first thing I would say that we don't talk about failure enough, or at least not in the right way. Most company cultures that I've seen will trade failure like a smudge on a whiteboard, something that they should erase as quickly as possible. But actually from my perspective and from all the cultures that I've seen that work really well with failure. Lars (03:53.094) Mm-hmm. Paulina (04:21.814) failure becomes a flashlight. It will point to what's broken, what's stuck, what's no longer working. And only that flashlight will allow you to surface that and make sure that you can work to turn this around. Right? And if you don't do this, if you don't have the flashlight, if you don't see what's broken, what's stuck, then every company will keep repeating the same mistakes. They will keep making slow decisions. They will keep burning out their talent. they will keep missing deadlines, et cetera, et So it's rarely about individuals, I think things up. It's usually a signal that there is an underlying issue, an underlying mistrust to look at what's breaking, right? Because those cultures aren't and... I keep remembering, keep thinking about last week's episode with the CEO from hell and certain cultures and certain leaders, they want to break people to make them fit a mold and just do what they are told. But that's not where learning happens. That is actually avoidance rather than anything else. So let's break the cycle of avoidance, the cycle of Lars (05:24.956) Yeah Paulina (05:47.499) not talking about failure instead of trying to break people. Lars (05:54.032) Yeah, and speaking about last week's episode, if you're just tuning into the show for the first time, please pause and listen to that one first. That was probably one of the most insane stories I've ever heard. And by far the most insane one we had on the show so far on about a CEO and literally a CEO from hell, right? Paulina (06:19.906) Yep. Lars (06:21.589) And then when you talk about learning from your mistakes here, it's like, I know this is such a cliche to say, but for me, it's like all my F-ups in life is the one that turned me into the person that I am today. Because you don't learn anything if you just browse through life without any missteps or knock on the head or being knocked down and so on. Paulina (06:49.25) Absolutely. Lars (06:49.371) It's like the failure is like you're saying, it's kind of a flashlight on what do you need to change and how can you actually improve yourself or your company, right? Okay, let's dive right in. Let's go into the deep end from the beginning here. Many companies with failure, view failure as something to hide, a kind of a dark secret, right? What's a popular myth around failure in the corporate world? Paulina (06:58.848) Mm-hmm. I couldn't agree more. Lars (07:18.833) that you'll love to debunk here in the show. Paulina (07:22.864) that perfection is the goal. Perfection from, I'm sorry. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly, that's exactly why it's such a popular myth, right? so many companies that I've worked with do see perfection as the goal and they will lose. Lars (07:25.583) What? What? I'm shocked, but I'm perfect. I thought that was the goal. No, sorry. Paulina (07:51.022) time and sleep and money on the way to getting to perfection. And perfection is therefore the enemy of any real progress. It slows teams down, it paralyzes innovation and it kills momentum. So I would highly, highly advise. Yes, of course, shoot for the stars, right? If you miss, you'll land among the moon. That's, I love that saying, but. so you should have high ambitions. You should have the high goals, but you should never aspire to have things done perfectly. all the time and make that the stepping stone to finishing a project or anything. And another myth that I would, I really hear or see a lot is that avoiding conflict is something noble, that it is something that is important to keep the peace in a company or yeah, just the harmony in healthy cultures. Conflict is actually the engine of clarity because conflict isn't necessarily something that breaks relationship between people on the contrary, right? It is actually something that can propel things forward. I've seen teams stuck for months on a specific topic until someone dared to say, hey, clearly this isn't working. We need to do something differently here. So constructive conflict, and that's clearly the key point I'm trying to make, right? So don't just yell unconstructively about certain things. Lars (09:44.101) you Paulina (09:47.928) but a constructive conflict where you disagree, where you actively disagree and where different opinions are invited and welcomed and where the team lead or project lead is actually surfacing the fine lines where things are not seen eye to eye within the group. So then you can really discuss about those fine lines. That is dysfunction. It is honesty with purpose. And therefore it is exactly what true innovation and progress happen. Lars (10:24.937) That's I think that's, that's a very great insights and, and you're the company culture expert here on the show. So of course you have the insights. My insights on like conflicts and stuff mainly come from my personal life. And I would say back, back to your point here is me and my girlfriend, we, course, like any other couples, we have conflicts. But we are very open to like, like she has her opinion. have my opinion and we need to talk about it. So back to your point again, that config is a good thing. It actually, it shows, it shows the, the, the, opinion of the opposite person. Right. And that, that gives you kind of insight on how do they think and what is their view on things. And your view might not, and I know this is a big surprise. Paulina (10:50.35) Hmm. Paulina (11:10.348) Exactly. Lars (11:19.429) you might not be the right one. So if you're open to these conflicts and open to have these talks and so on, then you'll just come up in your case with a better product when you say, hey, this isn't working. Then, why isn't it working? What can we change here and be open for that criticism? Paulina (11:35.502) Yeah. Paulina (11:39.288) And I think this is a super important point that you're making that is also true for all of our society, right? We are seeing so much people are stuck in their bubble where everyone shares their own opinion and conflict tends to become a personal attack on who you are instead of a discussion around a topic, right? And that goes through every single bubble that I know. Lars (12:04.029) Mm-hmm. Paulina (12:08.142) I know. And don't get me wrong. I love my own bubble. I love it very much. But I think this, this becomes an actual societal problem that we start, that we stopped probably around COVID to have like honest discussions on a topic level without making this a personal attack or without receiving it as a personal attack. It's become very, very harsh and therefore one-sided. And I guess that's also why we get stuck on certain topics because we don't allow for cross-pollination of ideas from different viewpoints because there might be really great ideas or at least good. points within the arguments of another party or another opinion stream. So as always, right? We see this company cultures, societal cultures, family cultures, all of that. They have similar dynamics. Lars (13:22.715) Yeah. And again, back to your point about like seeing other people's view, you and I, we both have been working in the tech industry, right? And for me, all innovative companies that I've heard of, known of, maybe been part of and so on. One of the things that was very similar to all of them is that everybody was involved and everybody's opinion mattered, Paulina (13:54.648) Mm-hmm. Lars (13:56.517) So again, be open to that criticism. Okay, back on track. Paulina, you've worked with countless organizations in the Country Code Foundation. Can you share a specific example, perhaps a case study, without naming names, of course, if necessary, of a company that truly embraced a significant failure and in hindsight, it became a pivotal learning experience for them. So can you kind of take us back? to beginning of that situation, if you have any. Paulina (14:29.71) Yeah, of course. so, uh, I'll share in a story about a mid-sized tech company. They were B2C focused and they scaled really fast in the beginning of their career. They had like triple growth, tripled their growth in under 18 months. Um, and really successful in, in launching their products until then. Um, but because they scaled so fast. They didn't really have any structures within the business. So there was a lot of team silos. There were project delays. There was constant rework because they just didn't do, retros. They didn't involve the users in their feedback loops, cetera. And, leadership would blame execute poor execution on the IC side. But as always, when leadership blames ISIS, you will see that the truth actually lies deeper and usually is a issue rather than individual people topic. So they actually ran into situation where a high profile product launch completely flopped. They had bugs in the product. had user backlash and then, they started blaming internally. Other one department, the other say sale sales blamed the product. Of course, the product team, of course, the product team in terms said, this is actually Salesforce because they, the, the, fault of the Salesforce, because they just put too much pressure on us to develop this quicker. And we told you that we weren't ready. La di la di la, you know this from tech companies, especially the engineering and sales and go to market teams. They will love the conflict when it comes to this kind of stuff. And, and instead of sweeping all of that under the rug or just say, okay, that went shittily. Let's move on. The CEO in this company did something radical. They actually stopped all product week for two full weeks. Lars (16:26.173) Thanks. Lars (16:33.195) Yes, they will. Paulina (16:53.342) And invited the whole organization to do a failure retrospective. And I think in a couple of episodes ago, we spoke about after action reviews. So where you talk without any blame, what do we need more of? What do we need less of? What, what did go wrong? How can we avoid doing this, making the same mistakes in the future? But without. yeah, without personal blame or without looking for guilty parties. Right. So that kind of became their, their mantra during those two weeks. And they even involved users actively to bring in their perspective as well. And then they build new structures and new rituals. they did, they initiated that, they would have. across team postmortems on regular basis, where they also would invite the users on regular basis. They would have open demo days and no blame debrief after every sprint. just among other things, right? But it was very much focused on, okay, how do we keep getting better? Not about how do we avoid failing at all costs. So more about let's implement things that help us learn continuously from the current project. So not again, it's not perfection. It's the continuous structure of learning. So it is important for me to state at this point that it does take guts to do, to follow such a radical approach. especially if your investors don't agree with you stopping your operational work for two weeks, which might happen. Let's be realistic. And for sure, it will not necessarily go down well with everyone, even in the workforce. And therefore it does take stamina and consistency to really follow through with this kind of approach. Lars (18:50.845) you Paulina (19:13.292) And I'm not saying that's the only kind of approach you have. You can also obviously implement smaller bits and pieces here and there. but sometimes a complete reset can be extremely helpful. Right. And if you do take such a radical approach, you obviously need to communicate this really well, get your leadership team on board and continue to keep this big picture, this big goal consistently in mind. And for this company. It paned out really well because within six months, the employee trust score spiked and with their newly found agility, they launched the revised product three weeks ahead of the new schedule and received a lot of positive user feedback. So clearly this approach worked for them. Lars (20:05.693) That is a, that's actually a very fascinating story. It kind of reminds me, there's this guy here in Denmark, a really well known tech founder called Martin Torbo. He runs a company called De Niro, which is an accounting platform. He has this mantra that he's always used in all his companies is what says launch crap, but launch and, Paulina (20:32.686) You Lars (20:33.309) They are very, it's kind of back to your story because they're very open about it. Every time they launch something, they just say right off the bat, say like, we're launching this new product or this new feature. It might be buggy, but support is sitting there. We would love to get your feedback. They already involved users saying like, if you want to this feature, then you can sign up for this. a feedback demo seminar, webinar thing where you can give all your feedback and so on. So instead of launching something that might be buggy and back to your story that causes a lot of internal things in your story, the CEO was really good turning that around to a positive thing, luckily enough, but just being very upfront about it saying like, Hey, we're launching, it might be crap, but hey, we are ready to help you out and so on and so on. Right. Paulina (21:22.094) Mm. Paulina (21:30.626) Yeah, that's definitely an approach that can work as well. Obviously it always has to do with the target group that you're selling to. There might be target groups where that's, if you're in fintech, example, that's clearly not a way to go. But at least you have to make sure that some basic legal financial security things are definitely working right from the bat. Lars (21:31.399) M-m-m-m-m- Paulina (22:00.39) and we have a product that requires a lot of trust, from the customers. You might want to be a bit more, a bit more towards perfect before you launch. But, I mean, I've worked in so many different tech companies and I've seen, I don't think I've ever seen anyone launch a product that was completely perfect from the get go. And it will never be, it will never be because technology evolves nowadays faster than we can say hello. And the user, different users will have different feedback on the product because they have different needs or preferences, et cetera. So no product in the world will ever work perfectly for every single user. That's just, and if you, think if you. that calls for services, for products, no matter what. So I guess if you accept that simple truth, that is already kind of freeing because you don't have to strive for the perfection because you know, I'm never going to get there anyway. I'm going to get to really strong product, really strong service, but it will not be perfect for everyone, ever. Lars (23:14.896) Mm-hmm. Lars (23:23.165) I might come back to that on a later show because I'm launching a new product next week in one of my startups. So let's see how that goes. Okay, Paulina, it sounds like a difficult period from again, back to your story, but ultimately transformative, right? Which I think is the beauty of your story. When you look at companies that are... Paulina (23:45.048) Mm-hmm. Lars (23:51.601) generally good at learning from their mistakes. And there are companies that are really good at learning from their mistakes, luckily. What are, let's say three things that are consistently present in their organizational learning strategies? Paulina (24:07.534) Okay, three things that I've seen, maybe not in every single one of them, but in a lot of those companies. First of all, Radical Kenda. That is a concept. Yeah, Lars, you know it. It is, but for all the listeners out there who might not have heard it yet, it is a feedback method that is based on Kim Scott's work and book. Has the same name, Radical Kenda. And it basically means instant, no BS, no sugarcoating feedback that runs across the entire organization. Meaning everyone can give feedback to anyone. So the intern can also give feedback to the CEO. And this way, hierarchy and silos like teams become irrelevant in feedback cycles, leading to constant growth and cross pollination from different perspectives across different departments, for example. And this is source crucial from my perspective to propel organization learning forward while walking the super thin fine line between toxic positivity and toxic pressure on the other hand, right? Because if you don't give radical candid feedback, radically candid feedback, You might just invest more in the harmony or be more interested in the heart and holding up the harmony, which brings us back to constructive conflict. And the other way around is obviously just yelling at people that like the trade is leaving the station and it's your decision if you're on it. but let me make this a bit more concrete. So with radical candor, is super important that feedback is never personal. It is only topic related. It should always come with very clear examples and actionable suggestions on how to improve the next time. That is, that is crucial when it comes to, to radical candor. Second thing that I, Paulina (26:23.746) that I see a lot is feedback loops with teeth. What I mean by that is that you don't just do surveys, that you find a way to get, to really implement feedback rituals. This could be, for example, more of less of check-ins with your direct reports. So in my one-on-ones, for example, I would always ask my team, What do you need more of from me? What do you need less of? You might remember that Lars. Because that not only does that inspire people to really reflect what they need, but it is also a great feedback loop for myself as a leader to learn how I can support each individual in my team even better. So that it's basically. Lars (26:57.469) yes. Paulina (27:21.388) growth cycle for both parties. And it can also be the post mortems that we've discussed before, where every role basically reflects on what they can do better next time. So sound reflection is as always a crucial part. And that brings me to the third thing that I see a lot is following the framework of the three Rs. The three Rs stand for Reflect, Refrain, and rebuild. again, the reflection, you reflect on what happened, not what some somebody did wrong, but what happened. You reframe the story. So you move away from we failed to we discovered. And then you rebuild habits and systems because learning needs structure, not just a slogan. So More often than not, companies will do the reflection part of it, but then struggle to make any actual changes happen. So they stay on the surface level or the learning, they stay on the information part of it or failure, but they don't get into the implementation part of it. So this framework, reflect, reframe, rebuild. can help you in a very simple way to remember to translate this reflection into actionable, trackable and measurable change. Lars (28:56.605) And the building on that, the concept of a, let's call it a growth mindset is often mentioned when discussing learning from setbacks from your perspective at the culture code foundation. What's the most critical aspect of fostering a growth mindset within a company, especially when things, when things go wrong. Paulina (29:20.558) For me, that all comes down, all of the topic of failure culture comes down to trust on the one hand, and what you tolerate and what you celebrate on the other hand. leaders will often say we support growth, but then only reward the safe wins. And that's fake safety. That's fake trust in innovation. What I love to say is in real growth cultures, how they reward courageous failure. So this can mean spotlighting a failed project in all hands and not just the successful ones and celebrating what was learned within failing within this project. And this also means modeling and sharing vulnerability. We've done this road again, but I think it's a bunch of other can keep repeating. If a leader's never admit mistakes, why should their teams? Right? When I was still an active leader, I would start my quarterly reviews with sharing my biggest learning of that quarter. So not just what I have to up, but also what I learned from that and what measures I took to prevent that from happening again. so if you followed that easy script with those three points, failure learning action, your team will start adopting this way of thinking about mistakes sooner or later. And then you have this, you can create this pocket of, of excellent learning within your own team without any procedural or company wide approaches. Lars (31:17.469) And I will just say with my next comment here for everybody, just tuning in the first time to our show here is, so just to give some context, Paulina used to be my leader in a German company called SaltMate. And back to what you're saying, Paulina, about being vulnerable as a leader or showing that you're also vulnerable. I would say actually both you and Christian, who was my leader before you, that you followed in the company. Both of you was really, really good at that. Like being upfront and honest and just saying like, for me, like if you go into a meeting with your leader and your leader starts by saying like, hey, I'm just going to start out by saying, I really had a bad day yesterday. So I might be a little bit off or something like that. For me, that lowers my guard in terms of how much I think I can tell my leader or. Paulina (31:49.294) Thank you. Lars (32:13.585) how honest I can be or what kind of feedback I can give because it just shows that your leader is a person like everybody else. And of course they are, but a lot of people have this vision or look at a leader that they are kind of like up on a pedestal or something like that. And they might be tougher than the rest or more like resilient to backlash or pain, but everybody has like problems in their private life or... Paulina (32:22.094) Mm. Lars (32:41.713) just having a bad day in general or like you're saying in Danish got the right the wrong leg out of the the bats which is like a Danish term that doesn't translate very well. Paulina (32:52.46) We have the same saying in Germany though. Yeah, we do. Lars (32:55.249) really? Okay. But back to my point is that just be vulnerable as a leader. Just show who you are as a person. You will get your whole team to open up and get them to connect with you on a different level, Paulina (33:13.068) Exactly. And that's, and that's where the stress part came in that I, that I mentioned before, which is so important, right? and leaders that are approachable, are trustworthy, that are authentic, that, make that, that clearly signal, I'm failable and I'm fine with being failable. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing this word correctly, but, Lars (33:34.621) Mm-hmm. Paulina (33:42.922) I can make mistakes and I'm fine with making mistakes because I'm learning from the mistakes and I'm growing from the mistakes. That's a comp that implements a different mindset in your team as well, because they can trust that they will not get yelled at. They can trust that they will not lose their job for making a mistake. And, they can trust that, potentially the failure is actually getting celebrated for, for the learning that was within this mistake. Lars (34:12.855) Exactly. I prepared the next question here and I'm really looking forward to this one because I love to like getting your feedback on your learnings from the Culture Code Foundation and then try to like how can you improve your business and I'm a business owner myself so I love these questions. What's the biggest challenge you see companies face when they do this in quotation marks for everybody just listening when they Paulina (34:22.382) you Lars (34:42.735) try to turn failure into an opportunity, but often fall short. Paulina (34:50.446) So again, what I usually, what I, I would say probably two things that I see a lot. One is they don't actually action on the things that they've learned from, from any mistake. So that the mistake is just an incident basically, and not, it doesn't become an actual learning opportunity because the learnings aren't put into structures, into processes, into templates or whatnot. And then you basically lose the newly found knowledge again. And then it might just not have happened at all. then the failure kind of becomes obsolete and meaningless. Yeah. So that's, that's the one thing I see. And the other thing I see is they say it's okay to experiment, but then they actually do punish experimentation at the end of the day. So, and when the second people will get burned for trying something new, learning will stop. And it's really hard to get that back on track. So cultures of the failed learning say things like. Why did you do that instead of what did you learn? How could this go wrong instead of what did we learn from this? Lars (36:22.365) I would say especially the last one you said, I have encountered that so many times. You see so many leaders like we need to experiment, we need to be more bold or we need to do this and this and this. And then when you come up with something, say like, hey, this might sound like a crazy plan. And you know, me Paulina, the godfather of crazy plans. It's like when you come up with those, people's like, no. Paulina (36:22.818) Paulina (36:30.499) Yeah. Paulina (36:44.974) You Lars (36:49.373) it sounds a little bit too risky or something like that. Paulina (36:53.774) Hmm. Hmm. You hear that a lot. And, um, I just now remember a third thing that I've seen a lot, um, ignoring the costs sunk and not ignoring the cost sunk. So, um, people, I don't know if everyone's familiar, probably not with the term of sunk cost fallacy. And that is actually a subconscious psychological mechanism. that if you've already spent money and time on a certain topic, you think you have to follow through because otherwise the money and the time spent is lost. And that leads to companies pursuing wrong pathways, wrong products, wrong solutions for far longer than they should because they believe that it's not a good thing to just wipe the slate clean and start fresh. And if you, if companies manage to actually ignore this sunk cost fallacy and decide, okay, yes, we've spent that kind of, yes, we have spent that money. Yes, we have spent that time, but clearly it's not working. let's move on. That is a huge game changer. Lars (38:17.949) 100%. Paulina (38:18.136) So. Yeah. I think it's, really important if you want to guarantee failure, when it, if you want to, you want to guarantee failing at failure, just create a culture where taking initiative and where changing the status quo is risky and being wrong. Lars (38:44.685) I couldn't agree more. We're kind of getting to the end of the today's podcast, Paulina, but like to just to kind of wrap things up before we say goodbye for today. So many of our listeners are navigating their own, let's call it personal journeys and often face setbacks. What's one piece of advice you would give to someone just starting out as a leader about approaching mistakes and kind of turning them into opportunities. Paulina (39:18.83) Apart from all the multiple tips I already shared before, I would say as a leader, your very first job is creating trust in your team. From personal experience, in one of my early leadership roles, I jumped straight into strategy, structure and performance with my new team. before I had even earned that trust yet. And this led to slow progress, guarded communication, like really trying to feel me out, trying to understand and trying to, people please me actually, because they were like, especially for people who have had leaders that were not trustworthy before, or that were micromanaging, people will be super guarded and will spend so much valuable energy and time on trying to understand, what will bring me, get me in trouble with her? What will get me punished from him? So if you don't manage to find this baseline where people really trust you, you will not see the same results if you invest that time upfront. And what I love to do when I, when I take over your team and you can do if you're a new, new leader and you've taken over a team a couple of months ago or half a year ago, you can still do this. You can do this at any point when you realize the trust isn't there. So you don't have to switch companies or teams to do this, but have an expectation meeting, a super open feedback session where you ask your people, what do I expect of you? What kind of work ethic, what kind of commitments do I expect from my team? And what can you expect from me? What do I stand for? How do I work? How do I approach mistakes? How do I approach learning? How do I approach leadership? And obviously then also asking them, what do you need from me? More of, less of, right? Bringing all of this together in, in, and you can do this either with each individual or in a big team meeting, which I even actually prefer because Paulina (41:45.231) Because it shows that you foster this open communication and that you aren't just vulnerable in a one-on-one situation, but you make yourself vulnerable in a big team situation. If you stand in front of five, six, seven people and you say, okay, this is me. This is what you need to know about me. This is what I expect. That's a vulnerable situation. Let's be really honest. This is not always fun, but. It is, it lays an important groundwork for trust and trust isn't a fluffy mushy soft thing. It is the foundation for constructive conflict. It is the foundation for learning from failure. It is the foundation for breakthrough. And if you do want a team that can learn and let's face it these days. Everyone has to have a team that can and wants to learn. And therefore you have to create a space where they feel safe to be real, where they feel safe to fail. Lars (42:59.805) Paulina, thank you very much. This has been an incredible insight conversation today. We talked about how embracing mistakes can lead to significant turnarounds, the crucial strategies for organizational learning, and the undeniable power of a growth mindset. I love the growth mindset. The key takeaway it seems is that failure isn't the end, but rather kind of a a profound opportunity for growth if approached with the right culture and mindset, right? Lars (43:38.695) Thank you very much as always for sharing your expertise for our listeners who want to learn more about company culture. The Culture Code Foundation is the place to go. Go to connect with Paulina, go connect with them on their websites. We are going to link to everything in the show notes. Paulina's personal LinkedIn, her Instagram, the Culture Code Foundation website. So there's like no excuse for anybody to not reach out. And if you have a story that you want to tell here on the show, we'll be happy to have you. We'll be happy to tell it. We'll keep everybody anonymous if that's what they prefer. Or if you want to come on and just openly tell your story, please just reach out to us. Paulina, any last words for you before we say goodbye for today? Paulina (44:06.434) Yeah. Paulina (44:27.582) Thank you Lars, first of all again for for this episode and thanks to every listener out there. It is such an incredible honor and privilege to do this show and to hopefully have a positive impact on work lives out there. And for today, I think my closing words might be if you trust Paulina (44:56.046) Okay, can you cut this out, please? Lars (45:00.059) Yep. Paulina (45:04.236) And as for today's episode, think my summary is create trust early on and make sure that you have structures and rituals in play that can actually continuously bring in new feedback and new ideas. Make sure that you hear every voice, make sure that you really surface conflict. between different stakeholders and between different opinions, because that's where the magic can happen. And then also implement processes that will make sure that the changes are actually fed back into either your product or your service or your leadership style or whatever. So don't just stop on the analyze part, also focus on the implementation and then you're good to go. I think it's as simple as that. Lars (46:02.681) And with that fantastic piece of advice, that's all for this episode of Cultures from Health. Thank you for tuning in and we will see you next week. Paulina (46:14.36) Thank you everyone. See you next week.