Micromanagers Anonymous: Breaking the Cycle of Control

Lars Nielsen (00:01.815) Welcome back to Cultures from Hell. This is the podcast where we shine a light on the workplace challenges that keep us up at night. I'm Lars and today we are tackling a pervasive issue that can stifle innovation and destroy team morale. Micro management. We hate it so much. We'll explore why it happens, its devastating impact on psychological safety, and most importantly, how to break free from its grips. I'm thrilled to welcome my co-host and a true expert in company culture, Paulina, co-founder of Culture Co-Foundation. Thank you for being here. Paulina (00:57.208) Thank you Lars, as always it's an honor and a big joy to be here. Lars Nielsen (01:03.071) I am so much looking forward to this one. is my number one thing I hate the most when it comes to workplace. Micro, yeah, you've been my manager, you know it. Paulina (01:06.716) I know. Paulina (01:18.499) time. Paulina (01:22.126) Oh, you have to correct this now because now people would think that I know this because I micromanaged you and and you hate them that same way. Lars Nielsen (01:29.611) no, so let's get that clear before we dive into it. Paulina used to be my manager and she has never ever in any way micromanage me at all. Paulina (01:33.87) you Paulina (01:45.24) Thank you for clarifying that. That is very important to me. Lars Nielsen (01:49.103) I think it goes without saying, Paulina, there's a reason why we are still talking. We are doing this podcast together, Paulina (01:53.581) haha Probably. I definitely don't talk to the people that micromanage me anymore. Lars Nielsen (02:02.549) Exactly. Okay, Paulina, let's dive right in. The premise of today's discussion is understanding why leaders micromanage and how it on... Another word I can't pronounce. Paulina (02:04.28) But I'll tell more about that later. Paulina (02:22.326) And an egg. just take it out. How it destroys. Just say how it destroys. Lars Nielsen (02:25.868) Exactly. Okay. I'm going to put in a marker. Okay. Paulina, let's dive right in. The premise of today's discussion is understanding why leaders micromanage and how it destroys psychological safety within a team. From your extensive experience with company cultures, where do you see the core reason for micromanagement stemming from? Paulina (02:59.522) Hmm. So what I see most of the time is that micromanagement is rooted in some sort of fear. Can be fear of failure, fear of looking bad, fear of letting go, fear of, yeah, showing that you don't know your subject matter or management skills at all. So. Often it's not about control for the sake of control. It is more about your own safety, which is really ironic because you destroy the safety for everyone else. so leaders micromanage because they don't trust the system, the people, or sometimes, or actually most of the times I've seen it, they don't trust themselves. So they confuse visibility. with effectiveness or control. Yeah. Just being. controlling with effectiveness. And I would actually say that it is an emotional coping mechanism that is masquerading as high standards. And I put the high standards in quotation marks for everyone who's just listening, not watching. Lars Nielsen (04:20.399) That's a crucial point. So you touch on fear and it seems like a significant driver. Can you elaborate on how a leader's own fear or anxieties might manifest as micromanagement even when their intentions might be good? Paulina (04:43.15) Absolutely. So most micromanagers that I've met in the past and that I currently meet, they don't want to be controlling. They are just afraid of being blindsided or yeah, just letting go. So they are very often what I see is that they are high performers that are getting promoted into leadership positions without any real support. So instead of learning how to coach. they default to doing things themselves and, or control or controlling all the mini miniature things, right? So their fear of team failure then becomes a loop. Cause if I'm involved in every detail, nothing can go wrong. If everyone does the things the exact same way that I would do them, nothing can go wrong because I know for me that worked. And ironically, obviously this backfires. And the team actually begins to disengage. And let me make this very tangible for you. I have, as I mentioned in the intro, been micromanaged myself and it was the single worst experience of my career. And trust me, I've had a lot of interesting moments, but So this person that was micromanaging me, she, so I was in a middle management position and she was promoted to a director position directly from an IC position with no prior managing experience. So she had never managed a team, even a single working student before. And then she was supposed to be in charge of an entire sales organization. And obviously, That is a huge jump for somebody. And so there was a lot of pressure for her to perform. And then she saw quickly that there was actually quite a little for her to do because we had the head of level below her, which I was part of. and we already had been doing our jobs for, for a couple of years and we were, we knew very well how to do our jobs and. Paulina (07:08.78) Yeah, we just, we were used to a manager who was very laissez faire, her predecessor. And so we just continued doing our jobs, reporting to her once a week. And, but she didn't know the nitty gritty details of our business model. She didn't know the nitty gritty details of how our customers work. Then she was, and she was in those big management meetings where she was interviewed about all those nitty gritty details. And because she didn't get them from us. voluntarily because we didn't think it was necessary, instead of telling us that she needed us to give her more information, she got involved in every minor detail. And she also got the feedback from the ICs that were reporting to me and my colleagues that she just simply didn't know what she was talking about in terms of the customers. And obviously that fed her anxiety and her insecurity. And, so she started involving HR at any sign of pushback and it was excruciatingly painful for everyone involved. And if I, I think I recall this correctly, it's, it's quite a few years ago, but 50 % of the entire teams and not just the head-offs, but also the ACs got so fed up with this micromanagement habit. That they left within six to nine months after she had joined. So she really, her micromanagement, not she, I won't put it to her because she also didn't receive any training or anything. So her micromanagement destroyed the team within nine months. Lars Nielsen (08:53.823) Wow. And then I just tried to imagine that you have to rebuild a team where 50 % has left. Like all that knowledge that's leaving the company, Having to hire new people, like the costs of doing that and rebuilding that, that is insane. Paulina (09:05.56) Mm-hmm. Paulina (09:11.894) is insane. Yep. And the customer relationships that left with the, with the colleagues, obviously, and yeah, at the damage to the organization in total. Lars Nielsen (09:26.179) This reminds me of a short story from my past where we were in a sales department as well. This is our background, both of us. We were using HubSpot as our CRM system. But the manager that came in, he didn't know how to use HubSpot. And yeah, really lovely. And he didn't want to like... Paulina (09:37.294) You Paulina (09:49.114) lovely. Lars Nielsen (09:53.271) take the time to kind of understand it and so on. And you have been using HubSpot as well, Paulina, you know, it's a very expensive, extensive tool, also expensive, extensive tool that has a lot of like report functions and you can set it up so you can just get reports on everything that goes on and so on and so on. But he couldn't figure out how to do it. So he forced everybody on the sales team to do a daily spreadsheet of what they have been doing. because he wanted to figure out like how many phone calls did you do? How many meetings did you do? What was the outcome? How many offers did you sell out? And so on and so on, right? So everybody had to spend time doing double work because you still had to do it in HubSpot. Paulina (10:40.108) Yeah, of course you did. Lars Nielsen (10:41.327) Yeah, so you had to do double everything and you also get the sense that somebody is micromanaging you. Because one thing is that they look into the reports that they can find in HubSpot to see what's going on because you are a manager, because you need to be on the top of what's going on. But being forced to go into small details in a spreadsheet, you just know that they're micromanaging you. Paulina (10:53.794) Mm. Paulina (11:08.354) Yeah. And that brings, mean, obviously this is also case where they are insecure because of their own missing skill and they create double instead of having some of you guys, just as you said, explain it to him and then learn from there and grow from there. He created double work for you, which is super inefficient. Just completely blows my mind that people get away with this kind of especially in a sales department because you want your people Lars Nielsen (11:15.287) Uh-huh. Lars Nielsen (11:30.561) Yes. Paulina (11:38.082) focused on selling and not filling in useless double information left, right, and center. So from my perspective, that guy failed on every account of his leadership job. Jesus. Lars Nielsen (11:54.575) Okay Paulina, let's try to understand micromanagement. What are some of the most common myths or misconceptions about micromanagement that you would like to debunk here on the show? Paulina (12:00.302) Mm-hmm. Paulina (12:10.582) Yeah. I don't know if it's actually still myths because it's very common knowledge by now, but I would actually definitely say there still is the belief around that micromanagement does equal high standards. And nope, it's simply equals low trust. Let's just, no matter if you don't trust your people or you don't trust yourself, I don't care. It's a lack of trust. The second myth I see around is that micromanagement is a personality trait. And that is probably the most important one here because it's often a learned behavior from toxic role models. Or as I said before, because it's, it stems from your own fear and you don't get enough support. So usually it is a more systemic issue than a personality trait. I mean. Yeah, for sure. There are a small amount of out there that just really like controlling people. I'm sure that is absolutely true, but for the majority, I would say this is true. and the third thing is that micromanagement is helping things run smoothly. And that might look like it, it might look like it on the surface. But in reality, decisions get slowed down. Everything actually gets slowed down and it kills ownership within the team. So it is probably one of the biggest drivers for disengagement, for demotivation, for frustration, for silent quitting, for loud quitting. Lars Nielsen (14:09.263) And what are some of the subtler signs that a team is experiencing micromanagement? Paulina (14:17.294) Well, you can always watch out for hesitation, right? People checking in constantly for small decisions. That's always a really good sign. that something's off, that they don't have any ownership, that they need to run everything up the flagpole. also lack of initiative. Like nobody is offering to take over additional tasks or simply going quiet in meetings because you, because micromanagement teams often stop speaking up. They've simply learned it safe and not to do, or just it doesn't get them anywhere. And I've also seen the complete opposite by like a weird passive aggressive resistance kind of thing, like missing deadlines or including deliberate tiny mistakes. So those kinds of mistakes that won't really harm you, but that might harm your incompetent boss for the level the higher up. So I've seen both of those sites, often actually combined. Lars Nielsen (15:23.843) And how does micromanagement directly erode psychological safety? Paulina (15:30.434) I think it's quite, quite obvious, right? because people are, it is so, it's just, it is such an incredible pressure and emotional strain to, be micromanagement, but be micromanaged and it creates this wait and obey kind of culture. People would stop asking questions. They stop owning problems or solutions. And one, one. employee at one class client told me, I don't think at work anymore. just execute. So they completely leave their own brain at home and just follow formula a and that's the death of innovation. think that's pretty clear. And over time, and that's where the real harm sets in. People will lose belief in their own capabilities. And they can become sick from feeling controlled all the time and from being given the feeling that they can't do anything right. Because they are not doing it the way their micromanager would have done it. So in my case with my micromanaging boss, I actually first stopped sleeping because it was so, yeah, I constantly had to recheck and double check and in my work and, was constantly and she always have this like dagger hanging over me saying that, I'll bring HR again into the next meeting if you don't obey my orders. And I actually ended up developing an ulcer from being micromanaged. So it is really an incredibly harmful experience for the psyche for many, many, employees, not just me, I guess. Lars Nielsen (17:12.372) Same. Lars Nielsen (17:25.655) And thank you for sharing that. That hasn't been fun, right? In any way. then it just goes into why if you are the person that are being micromanaged, you need to speak up. You need to take action on what's going on because it can have like really hard effects on your whole life. Paulina (17:31.974) Nope. Paulina (17:45.56) Mm. Paulina (17:49.922) Yep. Lars Nielsen (17:51.919) If you, with your experience, if you could sit down with a leader who is unknowingly micromanaging, what are the first three things you would want them to understand? Paulina (18:07.022) Hmm. So what I would tell them first is make it very, very clear that they are not helping their team. They are actually disempowering them. And then I would take it a level further and tell them that they can't scale trust unless they give it first. Because in in a, in any work relationship, the trust part, the leader always has to do this bonus level of trust. It has to start with him or her. And without trust in the team, you will not be able to develop constructive conflict among your colleagues. And that in turn, together with other things is the baseline for delivering on any results and therefore for any success. So if you can't, if you don't have trust, you don't have construct constructive conflict. And if, and if you don't have constructive conflict, you can't deliver on results. And if you can't deliver on the results that you're responsible for, you will ultimately lose your own credibility in the company and eventually even your own job. basically micro management doesn't only hurt my team. It actually hurts myself. And I think when I've seen when managers understand that cycle that can actually. help turn things around. Lars Nielsen (19:37.741) And what's the biggest fear or insecurity you believe drives micromanagement? Paulina (19:44.569) Hmm. I would say ultimately it comes down to the fear of being irrelevant. That if they step back, if they don't control everything, they'll lose their value because they honestly, they do believe that they provide value to the team and to the company by just having everyone replicate what they were doing successfully. But real leadership isn't about proving your own usefulness every hour. It is actually about unlocking the usefulness of others. And let me be very clear at this point, this is not about not holding people accountable. You know, Milaris, I believe that holding your team accountable and getting them to hold each other accountable. is one of the most important tasks of any effective leader. But this has to be based in trust, not in constant control. Lars Nielsen (20:51.777) And if we want to, let's say like break the cycle of this, what are some practical steps leaders can take to let go? Paulina (21:02.318) I think the first step that really, really helps most leaders is to set clear outcomes, not just tasks. You can use those smart goal setting scheme. Paulina (21:22.36) What is, what does, I forgot what the S stands for. Can you, can you put in a pin here, please? Lars Nielsen (21:28.547) Yes. Lars Nielsen (21:33.515) I can never remember him. Paulina (21:35.104) name. Paulina (21:40.952) Yeah. Okay. So we'll continue. So, so you can, for example, use what I'm always a big fan of using the framework of smart goals. So goals that are specific, measurable, attractive, realistic, and time bound. So that, and if you commit all your, if you commit your team on those Lars Nielsen (21:45.517) Yes, let's do it. Paulina (22:09.356) on those smart goals, then you can, as a second step, use regular check-ins instead of constant hovering. Like you can implement a routine where your team members update you automatically on the status of those projects and those outcomes. So there would be clear ownership, would be clear responsibilities, there would be clear timelines, et cetera. then they would tell you what the status quo is. And another thing that I think is very important is a shared definition of what done means, because that can prevent a lot of the micromanagement drama if both sides have the same understanding of when a task is considered done. Yeah, those are the three things. Lars Nielsen (23:07.189) And if someone, let's turn it around and say, if someone wanted to fail at fostering autonomy, what should they do? Paulina (23:20.462) Well, that's super easy because that's usually what micromanagers do. Give vague goals, check every detail, change the scope at the last minute. And bonus points if you tell people, I trust you, but then act like you clearly don't. Lars Nielsen (23:40.407) Okay, so now we have talked about like, what is micromanagement? How do you discover it and so on? But okay, let me just redo that one. Lars Nielsen (23:58.415) Put in a pin. Paulina, so for team members who feel stifled, stifled, okay, I'm gonna do another pin again. Paulina (24:11.052) I felt. Paulina (24:14.702) That's a lot of pins today. Lars Nielsen (24:16.021) Yes, it is. So Paulina, for team members who feel stifled, what can they do? Paulina (24:28.598) Yeah, that's a really good question because I always like to empower employees as well to try to work on those kinds of situations. So when you have a micromanaging leader, I would say start by naming what you need, not what's wrong. Because most of us don't, especially when you are already afraid of not being as capable as you want to project, et cetera. Your managers are not going to react really well to open out criticism. So you could say something like, I personally work best when I have space to explore solutions. So just tell them what helps you deliver your best results. And then also obviously make sure to share wins early and share updates regularly and upfront. And thereby build credibility. And if you do think it is safe, give upward feedback gently because sometimes managers don't know how they're actually showing up. And last but not least, because that can also be really helpful tool. You can turn this around and ask your manager, what do you need from me in order to trust me that I will get this done well and in time. Because very often the manager doesn't even, isn't even aware that he or she is micromanaging. And this kind of question can, not always will, but it can get them to reflect on their own behavior. And also, as a little sneaky side tip, you will be able to cite their own answer back to them if they jump, if they do jump back on the controlling bandwagon. So you have like double stitched, double stitching here. Lars Nielsen (26:30.991) That is a very good advice. think I'm going to put that, I'm going to pin that in my memory for sure. How can companies build a culture that prevents micromanaging from taking root or getting started from the beginning? Paulina (26:37.258) Hehehehehe Paulina (26:49.069) Hmm. Especially when it comes to starting at the beginning, you have to look out for it at hiring. You have to make sure that you don't bring in managers that have this kind of controlling mentality that, and also if you have new managers, either hiring them from outside or if you promote them internally, you need to remember to skill them up and really support them. I mean, remember my story, new manager, zero training, maximum pressure. That was just a guaranteed recipe for disaster. And as much as I really truly despised her for her way of managing today, can, in retrospect, I can see that she was just really left alone with a huge task. Cause if you promote it from IC to director, that's a huge step up. And then not to give you training, not to give you, it's just blows my mind how companies can do this. So make sure to teach new leaders, autonomy as a skill, make, also make sure that you model it in your own leadership. If you are a higher up and also check in, you can do those. I'm a big fan of skip level feedbacks. So a C level manager then would speak with the direct reports of a director, for example, and the director would speak to the, with the, with the direct reports of the head off. So always skipping one level to get a good understanding of what's going on in the team. obviously that also needs to be rooted in trust and in a good atmosphere overall. But if you really want to make sure that you. Paulina (28:47.156) that this doesn't take root. You have to find ways to listen to the people that are actually being managed. Lars Nielsen (28:59.895) Okay, I need to put a pin again because that's you didn't end with what's in the text. I got confused. Paulina (29:05.774) Sorry. That one's on me. Lars Nielsen (29:10.959) Paulina, this has been another great conversation. And again, I just love this topic. We have to do more shows on micromanagement. If you had to pick one most important takeaway for our listeners, what would that be? Paulina (29:30.488) Yeah, absolutely. Clearly, micromanagement is never about the task. It is about trust. So start there and everything else will follow. Lars Nielsen (29:42.489) Perfect. And if anybody has any questions for you on micromanagement or any other topic when it comes to company culture, can you just please highlight where they can find you and ask any questions they might have. Paulina (29:58.008) Sure. You can all find me on LinkedIn and at polina at culture code foundation or at culture code foundation.com where you can also find both Lars and me on Instagram and reach out to us directly to share your personal story that we're happy to share either with you live in the show or as an anonymous story that we retell here on the show. So, Lars Nielsen (30:29.325) Yeah. And I'll be sure to put everything in the show notes. If you want to reach out, you just click in the show notes and you'll find both of us. like you said, just reach out. We'll be happy to retell any story and we'll do it anonymous if that's what you prefer. Paulina, any last resources or reflections before we close? Paulina (30:29.506) That's it, I think. Paulina (30:34.67) That's it. Paulina (30:56.184) I would say if you're listening and you've recognized yourself in this episode, either as the micromanager or the Stifle team member, please remember that change is possible. And it can start with one honest conversation, either with your direct manager or with yourself. Lars Nielsen (31:20.535) And that's all for this episode of Cultures from Hell. Remember, building a culture of trust starts with conscious leadership and a commitment to autonomy. Thank you for listening. Paulina (31:36.11) Thanks everyone and thank you to Lars for hosting this. See you next week!