Culture Shock: What Happens After a Layoff

Lars Nielsen (00:01.841) Welcome back to Cultures From Hell. The podcast where we dive deep into the complexities of workplace dynamics and shine a light on the often unseen challenges. So today we are tackling a topic that unfortunately many companies and individuals have faced, especially in recent times. Culture shock. What happens after a layoff? We'll be exploring the lasting cultural damage left behind by layoffs and, critically, how to begin the essential process of rebuilding trust. Joining me today is our very own co-host and an incredible expert in company culture, Paulina, co-founder of the Culture Code Foundation. Paulina, as always. Thank you for being here to discuss such a critical and often painful subject. Paulina (01:06.36) Thank you, Lars. It's as always wonderful to be here and to speak about this with you. It's a topic that truly impacts the heart of any organization and obviously also of every employee that is hit with this kind of situation. And I'm really glad that we're talking about this today. Lars Nielsen (01:27.111) Before we kick off, Paulina, I have to ask you, have you ever been laid off? Paulina (01:31.532) Yes, I have. Lars Nielsen (01:33.519) Okay, me too. Paulina (01:35.126) Actually, multiple times. Lars Nielsen (01:38.341) I still remember the first time it happened to me. I felt like just the biggest failure ever. It is the worst feeling to be laid off, no matter the reason. Paulina (01:45.762) Mm-hmm. Paulina (01:51.734) Yeah. No, actually it depends. I mean, there was this, the one layoff, where I actually asked them to fire me because they, I was asked to, harass one of my team members out of their job because they didn't want to pay them a severance package and they were, the HR, the, yeah, head of HR and the CEO, were under the impression that this person didn't. fit into the structure of the overall team anymore. And they wanted me to really make his life living hell. Micromanaging and like really just giving him the really to do's. And I refused to do that. I was like, I, this goes against every, my entire core of my being. This goes against everything that I stand for. And I ref, I absolutely bluntly refused to do it. And then they were like, yeah, if you're not doing this, if you're not firing him, then we're firing you. I'm like, go ahead, go ahead. Do it. I'm if I don't want to work in this kind of organization that treats people this way. So, in that situation, I really did not feel like a loser. And it actually is one of the core reasons behind the CultiCoach Foundation, because that is when actual leadership shows up if you stand true to your values in such a situation. So that is actually something that I'm really, really proud of. And I want to thank this company for doing this because it's one of the reasons. that led to the foundation of my current company. Lars Nielsen (03:45.617) which is, I think this is like a great life learning that you kind of end up, I think we've all heard stories about psychiatrists that become a psychiatrist because of past traumas in their life and so on and they want to heal people and so on. And I just love hearing stories like this where somebody has some experience in the previous life and they set out to change this and this actually becomes. Paulina (04:03.15) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (04:14.557) what they do for a living to change things like this happening again. So thank you very much for sharing that. Paulina (04:23.022) You're more than welcome. I mean, you know the story, right? You've heard it before. Lars Nielsen (04:25.423) Yeah, I know the story. But hey, we have to pretend it's our podcast, right? Paulina (04:31.886) Absolutely. Lars Nielsen (04:32.189) Okay, Paulina, so to kick things off, let's establish some fundamental understanding. From your perspective as a company or culture expert, what are the immediate and most significant cultural impacts a company experiences right after a layoff event? And let's be clear, we are talking about mass layoffs with, let's say, 5 % or more of employees getting laid off. Paulina (05:01.856) Yeah. That's a very important distinction, Lars, because I mean, it's just the normal way of how companies work that you will always have to lay off individual people here and there. That's just, they don't fit into the full construct, if you're reorganizing things, if they are not performing and all the help that you're giving them, because you're a great leader, you're obviously giving them a lot of help to try to evolve them and develop them. And if that still doesn't help, then obviously you have to let go of certain individuals. But, and that is not something that I think needs discussion in this context. We can definitely dive into this in another episode, just to see how, how you can do this really well as well. But, when it comes to mass layoffs, which are usually a really big, deep cut into the core of any organization. it very much depends on how these layoffs are done and communicated because companies can actually do a lot of things to mitigate such a blow and therefore significantly reduce or even avoid the impact altogether. and I've seen this done well in companies. and I've also seen it done really, really badly. And when it is done badly, which let's be honest, happens most of the time, the most immediate impact is a palpable sense of fear and insecurity among the remaining employees that are actually very often referred to as the survivors. And for people who are not watching this, the survivors is put in quotation marks here. because people start to question their own job security, obviously they question the company's stability and whether they can truly trust their leadership. Paulina (07:13.708) I'll get deeper into this, why this comes up later on, but those three effects basically lead to decrease in open communication and reluctance to take risks or share ideas. And often I have seen rumors running wild, whether this is going to be it, or if next week something else is going to happen. And unfortunately, more often than not, next week, something else is going to happen because the, these layoff events are often done so badly. Right. And obviously, as you can imagine, this will, you'll see a sharp decline in morale and engagement if this kind of, yeah, energy is within the company and, the survivors again, in quotation marks. will often carry a burden of guilt, a burden of sadness for their departed colleagues. And on top of that, an increased workload from redistributed task, which can then quickly lead to high sick days, burnout, or them getting let go as well because they are not performing anymore. It's like a spiral of... Lars Nielsen (08:34.726) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (08:38.031) And for people not watching this on video, she was just mimicking a word that we can't say out loud because it's going to be bad for our algorithm. Paulina (08:46.948) You Lars Nielsen (08:48.541) Thank you Pauline. That makes a lot of sense. It sounds like, to me it sounds like a significant erosion of trust. So when we talk about rebuilding trust, especially after such a damaging event, what are some of the first most crucial steps a company needs to take? What should they say and not say to the remaining employees and in quotes, the survivors? Paulina (08:58.03) Mm-hmm. Paulina (09:18.272) Yeah. A lot of that goes down to recreating psychological safety and you can do this in the best way possible by showing vulnerability. Meaning as a leader, you need to acknowledge the pain and uncertainty that your people are going to be feeling. Don't kid yourself. No matter how mature they are, no matter how long they've been around, the pain and uncertainty is guaranteed. to be prevalent, maybe more pronounced than some than others, but it's going to be there. So not addressing the pain uncertainty directly only amplifies the rumors and anxiety. So what you should not say, you should definitely avoid generic corporate BS platitudes like We had to make difficult decisions for the good of the company. This might be true, but to be very honest, usually it's the good of the investors or the good of the stakeholders, not the good of the overall company necessarily. And while this might be true, it definitely lacks empathy and degrades the experience that the employees are having. Right. So instead be very transparent about why the layoffs happened, what led to them and what the future vision is and explain that rationale without excessive justification. give reasons, but don't justify the reasons. Be honest about the challenges that lie ahead and also clearly communicate the path forward and how the remaining team is vital to that success. And again, don't do this on platitudes or vague terms. Be as concrete as you possibly can. And once more, all of the communication around this needs to be consistent, authentic, and empathetic. So all of your leaders should be visible and accessible during this time. Answering questions. Paulina (11:43.326) Even if they don't have all the answers and this is, this is important, right? Silence breeds speculation and speculation kills trust. So to avoid getting into the spiral, you really have to show up, be there and be also absolutely honest about if you don't have, if you don't know things, just say, I That's a very valid question at this point. I don't know how to answer this, but I will keep it in mind. I will get back to you as soon as I have the answer. And then obviously follow through on that. Do come back to them. And please, please, please, please, please at all costs avoid the salami tactic, like firing a few people here and there with, then a couple of weeks later there again, a couple of people with no clarity as to why people have to leave and how many will be impacted. I've seen this so many times in customers. Um, and it's, it just breeds this. spiral of anxiety and rumors and disengagement and burnout even more than anything else. Because you will never, you just stop feeling safe altogether. If you hear the next firings, did you hear? Did you hear? Department XY laid off another five people yesterday. Yeah, and didn't you hear? You know where I'm getting it. Lars Nielsen (13:23.515) Yeah. And this actually reminds me of a podcast that I was listening to, I think about a week ago. So if people don't know this, I'm a big AI automation dude. I'm deep diving in that rabbit hole. And I was listening to this podcast where a web shop company They was like extensively using AI to everything. And that actually turned into a firing of 60 % of all people. And they were like 30, 35 people. That was quite a big chunk of everybody that had. And they were talking a lot about like how to communicate stuff. And again, like the owner, they were talking to the owner. He said like, at the end, I just wanted to be very honest and upfront why we're doing this. And saying like, Hey, we're doing this because of this. And then, and he said, it's not that we have to do it to survive, but we want to grow. then we were just very open about it. And, and to, it was only his words in the podcast, but he said, of course people were sad and so on, but no, nobody was actually like being. I was about to say a word that we can't say. Being angry, sorry, being angry about being fired and so on. They were just sad, but very happy that people were upfront about it and just being honest about everything. Paulina (14:54.316) And that goes back to what I said at the beginning, right? You can do this really well. You can do this. Obviously it's going to hurt the people that you're letting go and it's going to hurt the overall organization in one way or another. But it can be done in a very humane way, a very people centric way and in an open and transparent way that makes it very clear to everyone why this is an important move. Lars Nielsen (14:58.225) Yes. Paulina (15:24.842) that it's done out of sincere consideration. Lars Nielsen (15:31.535) And then this like the whole thing here that you just talked about that ties into the what to say and what not to say aspects. So beyond the initial communication, how does a company practically go about rebuilding that sense of psychological safety and fostering a sense of stability again? Because I would assume that's a big task. Paulina (15:56.608) It is a huge task. And for me, the most important thing is to avoid the business as usual mentality. It is not business as usual after you've let go 5 % or more of your entire workforce. So you need to acknowledge the change and its impact. And the most important part for this is you need to reevaluate the workloads immediately. Like often, the work of departed employees is simply dumped onto their former colleagues. And I said it before, leading to rapid burnout or resentment or both. And this demonstrates a lack of care for the remaining team. And if you do this really well, like if you do the opposite, you already have prepared respective plans and communicate them together. with the decision about the layoffs. Like for example, as a consequence of these layoffs, we have also decided to drop project A, B and C and we're reducing the scope of project F and G, right? So this is super, super crucial. And again, ideally as quickly as possible to communicate this so that no worries arise, no rumors arise and to preemptively answer the questions that will obviously come very, very soon. and secondly, leadership should always actively listen to employee concerns and really provide forms for them to share their feelings and questions. said before that leadership be available to answer questions, but you could also use town halls, anonymous surveys and dedicated listening sessions. And I think this is crucial as well. Have individual check-ins with individual employees, with your single team, but also Paulina (18:00.224) open it up for bigger audiences, have a combination of all of those to, to really showcase that you do care. So it's not about fixing everything immediately, but about demonstrating that their voices are heard and valued. And that also means don't do this once in like the first week after the house, but do this for a while, at least a month. I'd rather actually suggest to do it for six weeks at least. without, without making this a dramatic thing, right? Without dwelling on the past or dwelling on the pain, but just offering space for, okay, now four weeks have gone past since the, since the layoffs. I just wanted to check in what's on your mind. Um, what are you feeling? What are your concerns? How can we support you? Um. And through all of this focus on authenticity and consistency in actions. know it's my constant mantra, be authentic and be consistent. but if leaders promise things, for example, increased transparency, you have to follow through inconsistency, inconsistent behavior just will further erode trust. So, And once again. Make sure not to give super vague BS answers to any question. If you can't talk about details due to legal reasons, for example, say that, say, I'm not, I'm not at liberty to disclose this. Paulina (19:51.808) If you don't know the answer, say that too. And short, succinct and clear is always better than elaborate justifications since they will always sound apologetic. yeah, be on point, be sharp and don't justify things. Explain things, but to the point. Lars Nielsen (20:16.631) I couldn't agree more. have been more than once in a situation where you just have this feeling that management is just giving you BS or the whole team BS, right? And then like you're saying, it just spreads and erode in the organization. just, I just feel that it's just there to just, I'm going to destroy this. Paulina (20:32.44) Mm-hmm. Lars Nielsen (20:45.181) Because people start talking like, did you see what he said or she said? And, did you believe her or did you know? I didn't really believe her. And then that just, and also because maybe then that same leader comes three days after and actually speaks the truth, but then nobody believes the person right. Paulina (21:06.808) Yeah, I mean, there is this metaphor, right, of the boy who called wolf. And this is just fitting here. Lars Nielsen (21:14.651) Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. Lars Nielsen (21:23.577) Okay, Paulina, earlier you mentioned in quotation marks, the survivors and the burden they carry. How do you keep these remaining employees engaged and motivated when they might be feeling insecure, overworked or even resentful? What are some practical strategies for maintaining engagement in post layoffs? Paulina (21:48.098) Yeah. So let me repeat here. First of all, ideally you already have a plan for reducing the workload, which is definitely crucial for this topic here. And additionally, for engagement, for keeping the engagement high, from my perspective, the three things are most important, which are clarity, recognition, and development. And what I mean by that is, let's start with clarity. So employees always, usually, need a clear understanding of the roles, responsibilities, and how their work contributes to the company's goals. And after a layoff, it is super important just to revisit this and revise their roles, revise the responsibilities, revise the goals, and just... connect all of this for them again, right? Because uncertainty is a huge demotivator and they will also need to truly believe that there are no more layoffs planned in the near future. And you can give them that clarity by detailing scenarios. So, and this also ties into the transparency topic, right? You could say, for example, we need to reach XYZ within the next six months. If that happens, we can do ABC. If we don't manage to reach those goals, then we will need to revisit our plans. So they know upfront that for the next six months, for example, everything's going to stay the way it is. They also know what you need to work against. They know that they can influence things, which is always a super important thing for people having the feeling that they can influence. how things are going to move forward while not putting too much pressure on them. Right. And so it's a, it's a fine balance. And I love this concept by detailing those scenarios out. And obviously as always follow through and keep people posted on the progress towards these goals. Right. Because if you don't do that, then it's again empty words. So Paulina (24:13.386) And the second part I wanted to discuss is the recognition. So you need to acknowledge and appreciate the increased efforts and the resilience of the remaining team. This isn't necessarily about monetary bonuses, but short side note, monetary bonuses after a huge layoff round can actually have a detrimental effect on your people because they think If you're willing to give me more money, why couldn't we just have kept the other people? Right. So, or again, it's a fine line because you might need to increase the salaries for some people. If you increase their, their responsibilities and their workload, et cetera, or if the negotiation has been ongoing for a couple of months, you can't, if you go back on those promises, that's also going to kick you in the butt. but just wanted to mention this. It is a delicate issue that should also keep in mind the dynamics of your specific team. So if you have a very familial team that works extremely closely together and then really, really suffers from losing people, then you should definitely avoid monetary bonuses to the remaining people because those thoughts are going to pop up in their heads. If it's a very much shark eats shark environment, you probably don't have that problem. But anyway, coming back to the original topic of recognition, it is more about verbal recognition, celebrating the wins, even the small wins, and highlighting both individual and team contributions throughout the next couple of, yeah, I mean. Honestly, I think you should always do this. You can also adopt a communication along the lines. And again, only if that feels authentic to you, because if you're not being authentic, people are just going to think you're making fun of them. So you can say things like, I know that the last weeks or months have been difficult because we lost so many great colleagues. Paulina (26:36.042) On the upside, we have achieved ABC since we had to make this decision. So to showcase the positive effects that things have had, and while at the same time acknowledging, recognizing the pain or the loss, right? I've seen so many companies pretend that the people that left never really existed. And that gives like the impression that people just don't matter as persons, merely as a resource for the company. I'm sure you've seen this as well last, right? So you fire people and then you move on and it's business as usual, and you don't talk about them ever again. It's like Lord Voldemort in a way. You just don't speak their names anymore because it's going to bring doom or whatnot. That's just not, those are human. Lars Nielsen (27:11.321) Mm-hmm. Paulina (27:30.284) human people and they have had human connections within the company and they're being missed by colleagues and their work is being missed by colleagues. So just don't pretend that they never worked here. It's just insulting, frankly. Okay, what was my third thing? Development. Development. it is also super, super important, especially in challenging times to invest in the growth of your remaining employees. So I would strongly advise to provide opportunities for skill development, cross training, career path thing, peer mentoring, whatnot. this shows a true commitment to their future within the company. And that is what's going to give. both more security and more motivation because they feel, okay, I can grow here. Yeah, I think that's it for now. Lars Nielsen (28:37.713) That's it for those three. What's, I'm just thinking like, what is a common myth around post lay of culture that you would like to debunk here on the show? Paulina (28:49.646) That very much ties in with what I just said. And so many companies believe that once the initial shock wears off, things will go back to normal. And I want to be extremely clear here. They won't. Especially if the layoff has not been done well, the culture has fundamentally shifted. And assuming a return to the old normal, is a mistake and it's just ignoring reality. And if you accept the fact that the culture has shifted, then you can... Paulina (29:36.898) You can adapt to it. can steer the new culture in the direction that you want to steer it. But if you just believe everything's back to normal, then you you will miss all the warning signs. You will miss all the detrimental effects of this shift. and if you, if you do take it head on, you can actually turn this into something that makes the company stronger and the culture stronger. There is always black and white to this. Lars Nielsen (30:10.669) That's incredible, insightful. Thank you very much. Let's delve a bit deeper into leadership's role here. What specific actions or behaviors from leaders are most critical in demonstrating commitment to rebuilding trust and fostering a positive culture after layoffs? Paulina (30:42.286) I the first one I'm going to say is nothing new to our listeners, because I say that a lot of times, leaders must lead by example. So if you as a leader expect resilience and commitment from your team, you must embody that. You need to show vulnerability, acknowledge the difficulty of the situation, and at the same time, project optimism and... confidence and see the good things, good things that come out of the situation and you need to commit to certain actions that you're going to follow through on. So for example, you can say, okay, my commitment to you guys is that and girls, that we are going to drop those projects and that we're not going to get pulled into is side things that take our focus off our core work. Right. And then you need to make sure that this actually happens. Second thing is that as a leader, you, you actively need to combat the us versus them mentality that can emerge between leadership and employees in this kind of situation. All right. So they made this decision about us. They don't care about us. That is some typical sentences that you will hear. And transparency, as we discussed, is key here. when it comes to middle, and this also can also happen between top management and middle management, right? That middle managers are always in a super difficult position because they usually don't get involved in the decisions from up here. But they have to, but they are the ones that are dealing with the brunt of the emotions and the frustration and the anxiety from their employees or their ICs. So they will feel super isolated, super alone very, very often because they also will be afraid that if I'm not Paulina (33:07.508) super optimistic if I don't fully buy into this, if I don't fully agree with all of this, then I might get punished as well. So it is clearly also a job of the top management to make sure that the middle managers feel supported, feel secure, feel involved in decision-making processes and don't get overworked either because I've seen this as well, right? you would reduce teams and also had count within the middle management. And then one middle manager would suddenly be responsible for three or four teams, completely blowing up the scope of their work. Because not only do they now have actually more direct reports, but they have direct reports that they haven't worked with before. And where they need to start building trust and commitment with completely new people while balancing the pressure of the, of the overall, layoffs. So don't forget about the super difficult position that middle managers own. And the absolute surest way to fail is to ignore what happened. communicate poorly and expect employees to just get over it and immediately be productive and engaged. And I know that you've seen this in your career. I know that I've seen it in my career that, and in my career, this was a situation where one third of the workforce was laid off, like, which I mean, That is insane. Like a third of the entire workforce that is unbearable to really process how much impact that has on an organization. And then four days later, upper management was like, Paulina (35:08.77) You're still bothered with this? I don't get it. It's done. It's a done deal. Just move on already. Right? So yeah. please don't do this. Lars Nielsen (35:19.805) But if you had to point out like the most important thing a leader can do, what would that be? Paulina (35:27.852) really try, truly put yourself in the shoes of your people. Both the ones that will have to leave and those of the people who are staying. Think about what will my people need to hear from me? What will help them understand this decision? And how can I make their life easier? As a leader, especially middle management, a mass layoff is an incredibly pressured and difficult situation. And it is extremely hard not to feel awful about it. And my advice, especially to middle managers, therefore, is always let this difficulty show without asking your people to comfort you, because that is unfortunately your job. Do demonstrate vulnerability and let them see that you're having a hard time with this too. This will make you so much more approachable. and create a sense of being in the same boat as your team. Of course, you should also acknowledge that you support the company's decision to go down this path because that is your job too. But you don't have to pretend that this isn't a hard decision and to show that you too are struggling with the impact. Lars Nielsen (36:49.649) Before we wrap up, because as always, time is just, yeah, it just goes so fast when we're talking about these topics. You have so much at heart, Paul. So before we wrap up, is there anything you wish I had asked you about today regarding comedy culture after a layoff? Paulina (37:12.75) Yes, I think we did cover a lot of ground already, but I mentioned at the very beginning that there are good ways to do a mass layoff, right? Or a big layoff round. And I want to dive into this a little bit more. How you can prepare this well, because a good execution of a big layoff round can really prevent so much unnecessary fallout. And... Unfortunately, I've seen companies that use terrible execution in order to get, yeah, they actually did this on purpose, right? They executed badly on purpose in order to get more people to quit by themselves and thereby reducing costs or avoiding legal consequences that might apply to a bigger layoff. And I want to be very clear. Paulina (38:11.264) you are handling people's careers, their livelihood and their mental health. So it's your effing responsibility to handle this situation like this in a good and a humane way. And I want to be very concrete on examples, what you can do in order to do this well. First thing would be involve your middle managers as early as possible and let them have a say as to who needs to leave. Your middle managers know their team best and they will have insights that can reduce impact. Like for example, who's currently unhappy in their role anyway, and might actually embrace the change. involving your middle managers also will give them the feeling that their opinion matters. And that will give you a lot more internal support for the layoffs. And that is going to matter throughout the ex the entire execution. So this is top thing. Number one, second thing is prepare fair severance packages and overall plans like garden leave and support system. For example, recommendations, interviewing, training, et cetera, et How can I support the people that I have to let go of best? And when it comes to communication, I've seen companies inviting a part of the company to one Zoom call in the morning and other part of the team to another Zoom call. And the ones that were in this Zoom call, they received the news, we are firing all the people in the other Zoom call. And the people in this Zoom call would just learn, you're all fired. Paulina (40:09.346) Jesus, seriously, or just sending out emails. That's, that's even better. Just sending out emails, by the way, you're being let go off. So my, my ideal scenario that I've also seen, which I really appreciate it is communicate layoffs in a overall town hall early in the morning without saying who's going to leave, just saying we are how many people are going to be affected and then announce that the people that are affected will receive an invite to an individual call, individual meeting right after this announcement. So by this, of course you have a short period of anxiety or unclarity for everyone involved, but this way everyone has the same amount of information at the same time, which is always helpful. Important point, make sure that the invitation to that follow-up meeting does not come earlier than after the meeting ends. that people will check their emails, obviously, but you want to have everyone as engaged or as present in the meeting as possible. So you shouldn't by mistake send out those messages earlier. And probably the most important parts. As a C level executive, you should take as many meetings with affected employees within your responsibility personally. So obviously the respective line manager is joining the call because there is nothing worse than when the direct manager doesn't have this conversation with his or her own people. This a lay of round, big lay of round is ultimately a C level decision. And it shows a lot of respect and ownership to handle these conversations personally and yeah, handle the responsibility personally. So I think those are some of the crucial things, plus obviously preparing the plans on how you're to mitigate workload, cetera, but. Paulina (42:36.819) And those are the things that I've seen really make a difference in, in big layoff rounds. Lars Nielsen (42:43.511) And with that, that brings us to the end of another insightful episode of Cultures. We're just gonna, I'm take that water cracker bullshit. And with that, that brings us to the end of another insightful episode of Cultures from Hell. Today. Paulina, co-founder of Culture Co-Foundation, shed light on the profound impact of layoff on company culture and provided invaluable advice on how to navigate the challenging path of rebuilding trust and re-engaging employees. The key takeaway for me are the critical needs for empathy, transparency, and consistent action from leadership. coupled with a genuine focus of the wellbeing and future of the remaining team. Paulina, it's been a truly enlightening conversation as always. Tell our listeners who want to learn more about the culture code foundation and your work, where can they find you online? Paulina (44:00.974) They can find us at culturecodefoundation.com or also on our LinkedIn page for the Culture Code Foundation. And as always, we will put all of our social media handles and direct messaging links into the show notes because we also love for you to reach out to us if you have a short story to share that we can. take a part here and give advice on for people out there who have to deal with similar situations. Lars Nielsen (44:40.285) That is true. It will be in the show notes, so please do not be afraid of reaching out. And if you don't want to be public, we'll keep everything anonymous. Thank you again, Pauline, for sharing your expertise. Paulina (44:50.776) Yes. Paulina (44:54.464) My pleasure Lars and thank you for the amazing questions as always. Lars Nielsen (44:59.555) And thank you to all our listeners for tuning in to Com... Okay. I'm gonna cut that out as well. And thank you to all our listeners for tuning into Cultures from Hell. Remember, understanding and nurturing your company's culture is not just a soft skill. It's a strategic imperative. And until next time, keep exploring the complexities of culture. Thank you very much. Paulina (45:35.224) Thank you everyone. Bye Lars.