Episode Transcript
Lars Nielsen (00:02.488)
So Paulina, what's up?
Paulina (00:06.104)
Hi, Lars, good morning. same here in Leipzig, it's beautiful. Finally, the sun is coming back out. Love it.
Lars Nielsen (00:08.055)
Good morning. Beautiful morning in Copenhagen.
Lars Nielsen (00:15.64)
Yes, and we need that sound. We are moving into the darker side of the year right now. It sounds so wrong.
Paulina (00:24.928)
Especially in Denmark though, right? I mean, I'm not a big fan of... The autumn in the Arctic is actually really beautiful, but the winter gets really misty. So there are weeks and weeks on ends where you don't see any sun and I find that super frustrating and depressing.
Lars Nielsen (00:48.302)
Last week, so I normally go to the gym at six o'clock in the morning. And last week, I, you know, I was sitting on my bike. came out, I was like turning on my bike. have electric bike, I'm lazy. So I turned on my bike and I was like, I have to turn on the lights. And that was like the first time in like four months that I had to turn on the lights. So it's getting darker. And in Denmark, especially when it
Paulina (01:03.47)
same here.
Lars Nielsen (01:17.802)
If that way, it goes really fast.
Paulina (01:20.376)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I remember those times in the morning. There is no light out when you leave the house. I hate it. But...
Lars Nielsen (01:35.882)
I love it. I love winter. I'm a Viking. I love it.
Paulina (01:41.304)
I'm a summer girl. Through and through. Give me light, give me sun, give me warmth.
Lars Nielsen (01:42.862)
You
Lars Nielsen (01:49.858)
Yeah, I like it as well, but honestly, must admit, winter is my favorite time of year. I like, know, I have to get the warmth and the sun and it's healthy for you and so on. But winter is my favorite part of the year. I don't know if it ties into, I think everybody in the world now knows the Danish word hygge, which has been like really like, yeah, blowing up.
Paulina (01:57.207)
Okay.
Paulina (02:14.305)
Yes.
Lars Nielsen (02:19.182)
And for me that is winter, where you sit in and you coast up with a blanket and put on a movie and I have hot chocolate and newly baked buns with a lot of butter on it and I love it.
Paulina (02:22.947)
Okay.
Paulina (02:33.879)
I love that too, for about two weeks.
Lars Nielsen (02:36.398)
Okay, fair enough. Paulina, are we ready? Let's jump into today's episode. Hello, everybody out there and welcome back to Cultures from Hell. The podcast where we shine a light on the dark corners of corporate life and find ways to make them better.
Paulina (02:42.979)
Yes we are!
Lars Nielsen (03:05.774)
Today we are tackling a topic that strikes fear into the hearts of many. Honest feedback. We have all been there. The dreaded performance review, the uncomfortable conversation, the feeling that telling the truth could get you in trouble. But what if we have been looking at it all wrong? Joining me today is my guest, the co-host of the show and a true expert in company culture,
Paulina, she is the co-founder of Culture Code Foundation and is here to challenge the idea that feedback is dangerous. She's going to help us understand why honest feedback, when done right, isn't a weapon. It's the most powerful tool for building trust and thriving workplace. Welcome Paulina.
Paulina (03:57.678)
Thank you Lars.
Lars Nielsen (04:00.46)
Are we ready for diving into this one? I'm looking forward to this one. Really looking forward to this one.
Paulina (04:04.804)
Of course we're ready, let's do it!
Lars Nielsen (04:08.588)
We, don't know, honestly, I don't know if you're going to touch into this topic, but I remember when we worked together in, saltmate that doesn't exist anymore. we had, what was it? Was it candid candid honesty? No, what was radical candor? Yeah. I loved that. That was the first time I ever heard about it. I loved it. No BS. Don't wrap it up. Just say what you mean. And.
Paulina (04:15.652)
Mm-hmm.
Paulina (04:24.396)
A red- candor.
Paulina (04:37.868)
I want to touch on that one because I love it too.
Lars Nielsen (04:40.716)
Yes. Okay. Let's dive into it. Paulina, before we dive into the deep end of the pool, let's start with a fun one. If you had to choose between being the most popular person in the office or the person whose feedback is always taken seriously, which would you choose and why?
Paulina (05:03.31)
Well, honestly, I think that's already quite a deep question to be honest. But the answer still comes easily. ⁓ me, I take being taken personally, being taken seriously over popularity any day. Popularity is the cheap reward, I think. And real impact is actual leadership.
Right. The person who dares to say what no one else will, that's who changes the game. The person that is actually helping others grow by being very candid with them, by giving them feedback that helps them grow, that helps them develop themselves is the person that is actually going to change careers. So, and not necessarily, and popularity and take being taken seriously doesn't necessarily.
contradict each other, in my opinion, at all, because you can be taken seriously because of your expertise and because of the way you give feedback. And you can do this in a very kind way. And if you can show that you're coming from a place of honest concern and honest wanting to help people grow, then this absolutely is also going to make you popular because people can read your good intentions.
And so it's not a one way street in my, in my professional expert opinion. Right. But I have seen way too many teams spiral out of control or spiral out of delivering results because everyone was just smiling and nodding along while actually the building was quietly burning down in the background. And they just didn't want to approach the hard conversations. So I definitely.
Lars Nielsen (06:40.556)
Mm-hmm.
Paulina (07:01.814)
rather be the fire alarm than the office mascot.
Lars Nielsen (07:06.766)
You
Lars Nielsen (07:10.19)
Fair enough, and I completely agree here. The premise of this episode is that honest feedback feels, let's call it dangerous. Why do you think that is? What are the biggest fears people have around giving and receiving feedback?
Paulina (07:30.018)
Before I answer that question, Lars, I just want to make one thing very, very clear. From my perspective, and I think I've touched on that in the last answer already, honest feedback isn't something that needs to be feared. It only needs to be feared if it's delivered in a really bad way. And if it doesn't take people's situations or people's feelings into consideration in the way you deliver it, then it is something that people fear.
And yes, that is something that I see a lot, both in my own career and in the companies that I consult on. Because most workplaces are actually built on this silent deal. Don't rock the boat and we won't sing you. Right? So it's like, like we fear feedback because we have actually seen it used as a weapon.
like wrapped in bureaucracy, delivered without care or hoarded until review time, like some kind of emotional ambush. You don't say anything for half a year and then it's review time and you just knock it out all out. And I've also seen a lot, and I hate that so much when companies do it, when they don't deliver expectations beforehand. If they don't tell you,
this is what we expect from you in that role and then they just tell you you are not delivering up to the expectations that you didn't know that were given right so the fear that i sense in a lot of organizations from my perspective isn't a race irrational many of us have actually learned that telling the truth can cost us it can cost us reputation it can lose us
belonging in the workplace and obviously it can cost us promotions or even jobs. And so a lot of people out there actually silence themselves actively and disguise that as professionalism. Like yeah, you have to put up with it. It's just, that's just work life, this kind of thing.
Lars Nielsen (09:48.687)
And speaking of via Paulina, I'm going to throw both of you under the bus now because we both have what you call imposter syndrome. You and I have talked about that so many times and
Paulina (10:00.78)
Yes.
Lars Nielsen (10:06.464)
I know that what I get told a lot is that I perceive as somebody who is like very self-confident. I'm physically a big guy and I think that sometimes give people that perception. But you and I, have so much imposter syndrome. So for me, when I get called into a meeting, I fear is the first thing that happens. Why am I called into this meeting? Have I done something wrong?
Paulina (10:31.364)
Mm. Yeah.
Lars Nielsen (10:36.43)
Am I gonna get fired?
Paulina (10:36.516)
Yeah.
Paulina (10:40.004)
And I know that I did this to you once. I know that I did it to you once. I invited you to a meeting and I wrote something in the invite into like, Lars, we need to talk. And then you told me getting coming into the meeting, you were like, I didn't sleep last night because what's going on, what's happening. And I felt so bad because I.
Lars Nielsen (10:43.563)
Yes.
Lars Nielsen (10:53.39)
huh.
Paulina (11:03.716)
There was nothing bad to discuss at all. I just wanted to get it. I just had an idea that I wanted to run past you. So it was, it was all just a positive thing, but because of the way I framed the email and it was not, bad intention at all. It was just, oh, I need to get this done. Oh, I forgot. I forgot to invite Lars to this meeting. So let's just quickly shoot the meeting out, the meeting invite out. And so it was really short, short description. And there was a super important lesson that you taught me there that it's.
that the meeting invite has to help decrease fear already. Obviously.
Lars Nielsen (11:43.331)
But I also learned something from that episode, right? Because I learned that I have to voice how I am as a person. I think I'm getting so much better at that. So again, right now, know, don't have, in quotation marks, I don't have a boss because I'm self-employed and I'm part of different companies. But I've been really good at voicing that to other people saying like, if you invite me into a meeting.
Paulina (11:51.641)
Yeah.
Lars Nielsen (12:13.582)
I want an agenda or at least I want to know what we are going to talk about. Not just because of my fear of my imposter syndrome, but also because it's just good practice to prepare for a meeting, right?
Paulina (12:13.827)
Yum.
Paulina (12:28.886)
Yeah. And so I think it is, that is already a really, really crucial point. And it doesn't necessarily have to do anything with the imposter syndrome. So even people who don't have the imposter syndrome should not be kept on their toes by non-descriptive meeting invites. And I mean, we all know, right, if you receive a short notice,
into a personal meeting one-on-one with your direct manager and potentially even the HR person in the room, you know you're in trouble, right? So, I actually prefer it in those kinds of situations to pull people aside during the day and have those conversations without them, without having them to fret and, and fear about it for a day or half a day.
because I mean, the message is gonna land a hard blow anyway. And then you don't have to extend this period of fear from my personal perspective.
Lars Nielsen (13:36.963)
Yeah. And I think it's just also a very good learning for everybody out there that if, if you're direct manager or maybe if you, even if your manager and the CEO of the company says, Hey, let's talk. It doesn't have to be negative. I'm, I'm, I'm, yeah, I think I mentioned this before in, in, in, in one of our episodes that I have this popcorn brain, right? So I'm like full of ideas. And if I have a boss or a manager, which I had in you that.
it kind of brings that in, you you embrace it, like you like it because you have, then of course you want to talk ideas with me because I'm always full of ideas. So if Paulina says like, hey, Lars, let's talk, or even Paulina and Eric, which was our CEO at that time, said like, hey, let's talk. It doesn't have to be negative. Maybe they're just going to say, hey, you are the best employee we ever had. Right?
Paulina (14:19.428)
Hmm.
Paulina (14:33.956)
You
Lars Nielsen (14:35.51)
and then we love your ideas and give us five new ideas because we want your ideas. So, yeah.
Paulina (14:40.814)
Yep. Absolutely. Feedback. I mean, obviously there are feedback situations that are negative, but even in those situations, unless it's around letting somebody go, even if you have to deliver really hard feedback, it doesn't have to...
Lars Nielsen (14:48.418)
Yes.
Paulina (15:01.048)
give you existential crisis, right? If you frame it right, if you record right, if you communicate it right, and if you are, if you're filling the responsibility that you have as a leader to deliver feedback as a tool to help somebody grow, then even the most negative feedback can have really positive impact and can turn something around.
Lars Nielsen (15:24.769)
Exactly.
Lars Nielsen (15:28.814)
Paulina, is there a common myth about feedback in workplace that you like to kind of debunk here on the show?
Paulina (15:36.247)
Yeah, I guess it's exactly what I just, what I just touched upon, right? The myth that honest feedback breaks trust, right? For me, clearly the lack of honest feedback breaks trust. because if I see some, if I see you making a mistake and don't say something and just let you, let you continue running into the woods, running into the wrong direction and,
I'm actually silently voting for your failure because I don't stop you from making a mistake. don't stop you. don't help you turn around your career. so feedback is definitely not cruelty. is clarity.
Lars Nielsen (16:23.448)
Good point. Do you have, kind of from your own experience, do you have a story or a specific example you'd like to share with the listeners?
Paulina (16:34.348)
yeah, absolutely. This is one that I'm not, that I'm not proud of because I, because I pride myself very much on my clarity. and, and I, I once had a team member, who didn't perform as I was expecting during their probation period and I had to give them feedback. And I'm usually extremely clear in terms of, okay,
this is what's happening. This is what my expectations are. And you have X, X amount of days or works to weeks to turn this around. And then we're going to reassess and then, and I'd done it before, really successfully. And I had never had, had gotten the feedback from people that, mean, I had made the decision before. After giving the continuous feedback and not seeing the necessary change to let people go through the probationary period. So.
I knew what I was doing and nobody ever had told me that I hadn't been clear enough beforehand and that I hadn't given them enough support or chances to turn it around. But in this situation, I did say things like there's needs to change or we are not aligned in what is needed for this job, but I must have softened the edges.
sugarcoated the consequences and not being and not clearly communicated if this doesn't change, we can't continue working together. So the last consequence of clarity was definitely missing in my communication, as I recall it. And that person didn't change their behavior, they didn't change their approach. And then I ended the contract, by the way.
If you end a contract in the probationary period, don't do it on the very last day, right? Give people, if you know that, if you know that you know that this isn't going to work out, be fair and give them, don't do it on the last day. That's all I'm saying. And don't interpret, please don't interpret, interpret this as, okay, we'll do it the day before the last day. No.
Paulina (18:57.08)
Give it like two, three, four, five weeks before the end of the probation period. because let's be honest, if things don't work out, you know it and you know, don't know it on the last day, you know it way ahead of it. save yourself the time, save the other person at the time and give them that clarity. But back to my story. they didn't change. I wasn't happy.
So I ended the contract and they were genuinely shocked. They absolutely didn't see that coming. And no matter if, no matter what kind of filter they were hearing, there was clearly a failure on my part. Even I just would have needed to be clearer in what I was communicating. So I was too polite instead of
really radically candid and that cost us both, right? Because they were really, they were really shocked. They didn't know what was happening. They couldn't really understand where I was coming from. And I learned so hard in this situation that vague feedback really is cruel. It's false kindness.
Lars Nielsen (20:24.334)
I'm going to remember that quote. That's a really nice one. Why is it so much easier to give positive feedback than constructive criticism? What's the psychological barrier in this?
Paulina (20:43.326)
from my layman's perspective, I think praise feels safe, right? It is something where you can, where you can make yourself feel seen, you can shine, you can revel in your greatness. And it is something, yeah, everybody likes having nice things said about their work and their, the way they approach.
Lars Nielsen (20:46.54)
You
Paulina (21:12.622)
life or their career, right? Critique on the other hand, always requires vulnerability and vulnerability is never an easy thing for people and especially not in the workplace. so giving critique from, so not just from the perspective of the receiver, but giving the feedback.
always makes you feel scared that you might be damaging that relationship and that you might be damaging it beyond repair. And I'm coming back to that what I said before, Withholding feedback is actually what is damaging the relationship. Just more slowly, as, yeah. So you're actually trading short-term comfort for long-term resentment, I would say.
Lars Nielsen (22:10.572)
Okay, and you advocate for reclaiming feedback and using it as a trust building tool. What does that actually look like in a real world setting?
Paulina (22:23.586)
Well, the first thing about this is to check your own intention behind giving feedback. So if I give feedback just for the sake of it, or because I personally don't know exactly what my expectations are, but I've learned that I have to give feedback.
And, or if I don't like the person and I just want to make sure that they are put in their place or whatnot, then feedback is coming from the wrong place. So the first step is always check your own intentions, do the self reflection. Where am I coming from? and, one of the, one of the persons that I work with in one of, one of, from one of our clients, he always says,
If you want to lead people, you have to like people. And I think this is such a great starting point because if you don't want to help people grow in their career, their per and in their personality, then you shouldn't be a leader because that should be the basic, most, most basic requirement for you to give feedback to other people is to have really good intentions and.
wanting them to succeed, not just grow, but succeed. Obviously you want to drive them towards the results, right? So you want to help them succeed. And if that is your intention and giving feedback, then that is already a really great starting point. And the second point is to make feedback a rhythm instead of a crisis, right? So
what we, culture coach meditation usually try to teach, the companies that we work with is to really normalize reflection through tools like the after action reviews that we've discussed before in, the podcast and the three Rs. So reflect, reframe, rebuild, meaning reflect what happened here. Refrain is how can we see this differently? And rebuild is.
Paulina (24:41.73)
What is our next move? So, and if you start to ingrain this into your day-to-day encounters with your team, that is another crucial point. Because if you just wait for the half year or full year performance reviews to give feedback, then things have so much time to really engrave themselves, bad behaviors, low performance.
has a way of ingraining itself into, okay, this is how we're doing things here. So you need to be very upfront. have to do it really regularly. have to give feedback, always has to be bound to a specific situation. So if you build it into your daily interactions, then you can ensure that it's just always on point and it becomes like,
I mean, you train a lot, right? So it's a muscle that you can actually train. And if you do it like this, then it is shared vulnerability. is opening up together. It becomes something that you don't fear anymore. It's just something that you do on a daily basis, right? So it's not a separate ritual anymore. It becomes part of the operating system of your team.
Lars Nielsen (26:06.316)
And I think that's a good part. like you mentioned, I do train a lot. And then my takeaway from that, and this is not just about the feedback thing that we're talking about now, but like you're saying, like the first time you have to go to the gym, and I also used to be a personal trainer. So I've seen a lot of people that comes to the gym the first time.
Paulina (26:28.91)
No.
Lars Nielsen (26:29.57)
Right. And the first time you come to the gym, you feel uncomfortable. You feel like you don't belong there. You feel like everybody is looking at you and, you know, am I doing these movements correctly and so on. The second time it's easier, third time it's even easier and so on and so on. And two months in, you know, I've seen a lot of people when I was a and I'm actually still a trainer that comes in and feel like...
Paulina (26:44.836)
Mm.
Lars Nielsen (26:54.306)
these little mice that just want to crawl up in the corner and so on. like three months after that, you know, pushing the barbell, swinging the kettlebells and like, like they feel so comfortable at home. And I think that's, if I hear you correctly, this is the same thing here. Like start giving feedback. It might not feel naturally in the beginning, but you know, if you do it constantly and you train on giving great feedback to your team.
It would just be a normal part of the day and everybody would appreciate it in the end.
Paulina (27:23.94)
Yep. Yep, I completely agree.
Lars Nielsen (27:28.694)
Okay, I feel like throwing you under the bus again, Paulina. This is my thing today here. You already shared one story, but tell us about a time you made a mistake with feedback. What did you learn from it?
Paulina (27:31.396)
Do it.
Paulina (27:40.868)
and
Besides the probation period story, okay.
I guess the one time where I told a high performing colleague, who was also, so she wasn't in my direct team. She was a peer. She was also leading a team. And I told her that her communication was too intense. And for me, too intense meant that the people were shutting down in meetings. And, but I didn't say what I meant. just.
Because for me, that was clear. And she actually heard, be less passionate. Right? So, and then her meetings became really boring because she took the passion out of it. So I really, I, it was a fool's error and I really didn't help her at all with my feedback. I just made the situation worse. I mean, I, went back and I get, right. So we managed to, to fix that, but.
I definitely learned that feedback must be behavioral, not personal, right? So don't say you're aggressive. Be super specific and say something like in yesterday's meeting, I noticed your tongue got sharper when the team disagreed. Can we talk about that? So that I might also understand what happened there. Was there maybe something going on with her that changed the way she communicated? So you have this very specific moment.
Paulina (29:19.096)
this very specific behavior that you can balance your feedback on. And then you can start a discussion about it.
Lars Nielsen (29:29.068)
And what are three things that are essential for creating a, I'm going to do this in quotation marks, a safe feedback environment. If someone wants to be sure to fail at this, what should they do?
Paulina (29:38.649)
Mm-hmm.
Paulina (29:44.087)
Okay. So, I'll, I'll unpack those two sides of the question, right? Because one, one side is what can you do right? And when the second part is what can you do wrong? Exactly. So, to make it, to do it right is, consent. Like ask, can I offer an observation? Because not at, not all the time,
Lars Nielsen (29:49.335)
Yes.
Lars Nielsen (29:53.787)
What shouldn't you do?
Paulina (30:09.684)
somebody is actually ready to hear feedback and if they are not ready to hear any feedback then you might just as well talk to the wall. that is an important part. And then the specificity, that's a difficult English word, just like I said before, name the moment, not the character, focus on behavior, not personality and
Lastly, would say, which holds true for every leadership moment, curiosity. So you could end a feedback talk with a question around how did this land? What's your view on the, on the feedback that I've given you? Because that cure and this curiosity part is super, super crucial because it usually invites the discussion and you can understand much more where they are coming from and
They can ask follow-up questions if they want to really understand where you are coming from. So that's a game changer, part. And if you want to fail at feedback, really nicely f it up, then you basically just turn it around, right? So you surprise people, you critique their personality, and you just assume you're right and leave it at that.
Going in. Hey Lars. now that I see you just want to let you know you suck Bye Have a nice life so
Lars Nielsen (31:42.808)
Bye.
I've highlighted my girlfriend several times on our podcast and I just have to do it again here because she is like a, thinking about saying about consent and so on and curiosity. She is a master at that. every time we actually had like a couple of weeks ago, we had like an episode where we were sitting in the garden. I expressed some frustration. I can't really remember what it was about.
Paulina (32:02.084)
I'm reading after me.
Lars Nielsen (32:16.398)
She just actually looked at me and said, like, can I give you some feedback on your reaction? And I could just feel that, you know, that it was just, oh, you know, I was like, I was in the moment. didn't want to discuss this and so on. And she just lifted at that, you know, I said, like, not now. And she was like, okay. And then later on, she actually came back to me and said, like, hey, are you ready to talk about this?
Paulina (32:45.391)
that's amazing.
Lars Nielsen (32:46.456)
But, and it's just to say that my learning from that experience just underlines what you're saying, you know, because for me it actually became a very good experience. you know, she waited for the moment where I was ready for this, you know, and she gave me an observation when my arousal was much, lower than in that moment.
Paulina (32:59.512)
Hmm.
Lars Nielsen (33:12.502)
And then I actually learned from that episode instead of if she had like forced that observation on me at that point, that wouldn't have turned out really well.
Paulina (33:21.612)
Yeah, yeah, fair enough. And that is actually really, that's actually a really great addition to my three points that I made before. We should definitely name this at the fourth point, like follow up. Not just if you didn't get the consent to give the feedback right now, then follow up in terms of approaching the person later at a later point, because just because the person isn't ready to receive the feedback now.
Lars Nielsen (33:24.162)
So,
Lars Nielsen (33:34.637)
Mm-hmm.
Paulina (33:51.255)
lets you off, it doesn't let you off the hook, right? So you still have to deliver that crucial feedback just at a later point. So follow up on that part. And also after you've delivered the feedback, follow up if they are actually putting that into action. And if they're not, then repeat the cycle, give them feedback again, because the point of feedback gets lost if the change doesn't occur.
Lars Nielsen (33:54.701)
Mm-hmm.
Lars Nielsen (34:19.658)
Exactly. For someone who is new to this, what's a simple practical framework they can use to prepare for difficult feedback conversation?
Paulina (34:34.038)
No.
I would say the basic model that I would use here is the SBI model, which stands for situation, behavior and impact. So it gives you a lot of specific
Paulina (34:59.342)
Context like for example in last Thursday's client call that is the situation you cut off Maria twice that is the behavior and She shut down for the rest of the meeting. That's the impact. So if you list those three things together Then it is very it's a beautiful arc that is understandable for everyone, right? So this is what happened
This is when it happened, this is what happened and this is what it led to. These are the cornerstones for your feedback story, so to say, right? And after you deliver that, you can pause for a little bit. We've discussed the power of the pause before. And then definitely ask, what's your take on that? Because you've already shared that is the impact that the person had with their behavior.
And asking that question then on the other hand is where, where safety can, can come up because you don't say you, you don't just deliver this SBI and then say, and that, and if you do, if you continue doing this, then I'm gonna write you off or I'm gonna fire you or whatever, right? Depends on the situation clearly.
Nobody will ever fire somebody for cutting someone off in a meeting. Unless maybe it's the CEO that you cut off multiple times. So, but yeah, if you, if you ask that question, if you, if you invite feedback that is actually where safety can, can, can live.
Lars Nielsen (36:35.373)
You
Lars Nielsen (36:49.26)
And let's get even more practical here. What's one piece of advice you would give to someone who needs to give difficult feedback to a, let's say a coworker or a direct report this week?
Paulina (37:02.564)
We've discussed vulnerability quite a lot as a power tool. So a good way to start a super difficult conversation can be to invite them to give you feedback first so that you open up this corridor of trust and honesty between each other.
I do like showing, I'm ready to receive some feedback. I'm ready to be critiqued. And then, and then also reciprocate from there. Right. So you could ask, for example, what do you need more from me? What do you need less of? We've discussed those questions before that those are super, super powerful as a leader in terms of getting your, your team to give you feedback. And
After you've really listened to their points for you, shown curiosity, ask maybe some follow-up questions, thank them for being candid, for giving them their feedback, then you can ask it back. Right? So give them space to give you feedback and then disarm the fear by showing how to take the feedback for send.
And that feedback isn't like, isn't a bad thing, right? Like we could all say, that's amazing. I didn't know this about myself. Cool. Thank you for, for, for pointing my nose into this direction. Right. and then really like role model, right. Feedback getting behavior. And, if you showcase that, then this invites honesty for them when you give them your feedback.
and it builds the kind of trust that doesn't collapse under pressure.
Lars Nielsen (38:59.02)
And what skills have you gained and have, let's say, contributed to your success in helping companies with this culture or their culture?
Paulina (39:08.128)
And now we are touching on both you and my favorite feedback tool, which is radical candor. As long as you deliver it without ego. My general advice would always be take the ego out of the workplace. It doesn't have anything to do there. But radical candor for those who are not super familiar with it.
Lars Nielsen (39:15.883)
Yes.
Paulina (39:35.127)
You can always check it out. It's, my God, now I need to quickly Google that. I think, yeah, Kim Scott, Kim Scott. was not sure if it was Kim Scott or Kirsten Scott. so it's a book from Kim Scott. and there's also amazing short short YouTube videos and it is basically the same assumption that I've given throughout the entire, episode today that.
It requires vulnerability, of course, but it is a very direct form of giving feedback, but a very kind form of giving feedback. you would always, you would be, you would be very upfront, very straightforward, very, very clear. but we're coming from really, really good intentions. So.
It gives you the ability to name the unspoken. Because the real Rotten culture in a company culture is always what people don't say. And this is, those grey zones, those grey areas, can actually destroy culture. So if you put everything out in the open,
across any kind of hierarchy. So if you live radical kenda with your team, you need to also be prepared to receive radical kenda, obviously from them. And just be extremely perceptive, very on point and extremely clear also with consequences. But always have this...
thing in mind that a real consequence should always leave room for improvement before you pull the consequence trigger. So you don't just say, okay, now I've given you that feedback and I expect you to change my, now it's 849, I expect you to do this by 911. Obviously that's not gonna, otherwise I'm gonna do ABZ to you.
Paulina (41:53.509)
Right. That's, that's not what I'm, what I mean, right? It's about, okay, so this is the situation. This is the impact. This is the behavior. This is the impact. This is going to be the consequence for this. Um, if we don't get, get to a better point. So what do you need from me to get to this point in the next week or two? How can I support you? Right. And that is where this, um, good intention comes in. You really show.
I'm here for you. I'm here to help you get there, but you have to do the work. You actually have to go the extra mile and change your behavior. I can assist you on that. So, if you can really build psychological safety with your team, hold this tension in the radical Kenda, because that is what it requires. And you can model clear feedback and you can model how to receive feedback in a good way. Then you can change everything.
Lars Nielsen (42:54.382)
And let's just say both you and I are big fans of Radical Candor. Again, I was introduced in Softmade, I think it was Jürgen who introduced it into the company.
Paulina (43:00.856)
Yeah, absolutely.
Paulina (43:08.716)
Yeah, good. That is possibly true,
Lars Nielsen (43:12.066)
So shout out to Jørgen for introducing this. Yeah, I can just say to everybody, go read the and implement it into your company. It will change a lot of things. Paulina, as all... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paulina (43:25.282)
Yeah, but don't implement it before you have managed to build, psychological safety in your team. Because if you don't have that basis, if you don't have that trust basis in the team, then it's going to hurt your organization. So you need to invest the time in building the foundation first. And then the radical kind of feedback is a super powerful tool.
Lars Nielsen (43:50.947)
That's actually really good feedback because I would be the person I just implemented and just started being very honest. That might scare some people off.
Paulina (43:57.101)
you
Paulina (44:02.276)
you
Lars Nielsen (44:03.458)
Paulina, as always, this was super insightful. We have covered why honest feedback feels so dangerous, how to change our mindset about it, and some practical steps to start building a culture of trust. The key takeaways for our listeners today is that feedback isn't about being mean or nice. It's about being clear and helpful. It's the engine of growth and it's essential for any culture that wants to move.
from hell to something a little more heavenly. Pauline, thank you very much for being here. Where can our listeners go to learn more about you and the great work you're doing with the Kodjicó Foundation?
Paulina (44:36.664)
No.
Paulina (44:40.654)
Thank you.
Paulina (44:47.0)
You can always check out our website at countercode foundation.com or our LinkedIn page. And also you can just DM me either on LinkedIn or on Instagram. We will put all the social media handles in the show notes because we would always love to share more stories from our listeners, personal stories where you can tell here live on the show or that you can tell to us.
privately beforehand and then we recount your story anonymously, whatever you choose. And we would love to give space to your experience on the show.
Lars Nielsen (45:28.426)
Exactly. And to all listeners out there, join us next time on Cultures from Hell as we continue our mission to fix the modern workplace. Until then, be brave, be honest and start a conversation. Goodbye for now.
Paulina (45:45.23)
Bye.
