Breaking the Cycle: Turning Failure into Opportunity

Lars Nielsen (00:06.051) Welcome to Cultures from Hell. This is the podcast where we dive into the often uncomfortable truth of organizational culture. I'm your host Lars. And today we are talking or we are tackling a subject every business encounters, but few master. Failure, especially how can companies break the cycle of repeated mistakes? and generally turn those painful moments into powerful opportunities for growth. It's about shifting from a culture of blame to one of learning. And to help us navigate this crucial topic, I'm thrilled to welcome back Paulina, co-founder of Culture Code Foundation. Paulina is an expert in organizational learning and has helped numerous companies transform the approach to failure. Paulina, thank you for joining us again. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (01:10.978) Thank you, Lars. Again, thank you for having me and I'm super excited having this conversation. It is what's more a vital one. Lars Nielsen (01:21.577) like all the topics we have. Right? And it's another week and another day behind the microphone. love this. Paulina, let's set the stage for this episode. Why is it so crucial or why is it so critical, especially in today's fast paced environment for companies to get really good at learning from their mistakes or failures? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (01:22.572) Mm-hmm, exactly. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (01:29.123) Bye. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (01:35.896) Yes. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (01:49.39) Thank you. So especially in high-paced environments, where we've been working a lot, Lars, you and I, we've heard, I think the phrase until we couldn't hear it anymore, fail fast, adopt faster. Right? So that pretty much sums it up. We are maneuvering in a time where most things are moving targets and changing faster than we can even anticipate. So it's really hard to plan for all contingencies. and, especially wait for certainty, because if we do that, if we wait for certainty in these rapidly changing times, we will get stuck as a company. And so companies are basically forced to take risks and move really fast to see whether taking these risks will pan out or not. And at the same time, Obviously you want to reduce the fail rate and increase success rate. And you can only do that in this time of uncertainty. If you learn from your mistakes and not repeat the same mistakes in the future. And that is why it's so crucial. Lars Nielsen (03:08.425) And like you say, we both have a lot of experience from very fast moving company, especially in the tech industry or in the SaaS software as a service industry. It goes so fast sometimes. Yes. OK. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (03:22.678) like this. Yeah. Okay. You make a, you make a plan in the morning and then some regulatory change comes along in the afternoon and the plan from the morning is gone already. So yeah. Lars Nielsen (03:35.561) Or you'll learn that you're like, if you're really early stage, like you come in the morning and then by noon you have completely turned the whole product around and you're approaching new ICP and so on. That can happen. I've tried it. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (03:49.474) Absolutely. Lars Nielsen (03:52.251) Okay, so many companies, they talk about learning from failure, but what does that actually look like in practice? Can you kind of paint a picture of a company that does this well versus one that struggles? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (04:07.146) Yes. So I will focus on the positive side here. So I'll paint the picture more, more on company that actually does this really well. So the first thing that you will see in companies that are really good at learning from failure is that they actually embrace failure culture. And that means that they turn mistakes into stories and into learning opportunities. And one way they can do this, for example, is using after action reviews, which is actually something that was, I'm not sure if it's, if it's been invented by them, but it's been used far and wide by the Navy SEALs. And it is really, really easy to adopt into every company. It is basically a 15 minute meeting after any project or important meeting or after you close a big deal or something like that. So can do it whenever you want, whenever you feel like it. And the owner of the task or the project will be responsible for organizing it and use very simple structure where everyone who has been involved in the project or deal or whatever discusses what was expected when we started this project, what went well, what didn't go well, and what can we do better next time? And what you probably... noticed Lars, is that all those questions are centered around the word what. So it's never about who made this, who did this, who was successful here, who failed here. So it's never about persons or personal blame or guilt or anything. It is just capturing the what. And that is the major shift already here, right? from blame culture to learning culture. What can we focus on? What can we do better? What did we learn from this project? And then you can focus on actions and outcomes. And obviously, you know me, I'm a big fan of documentation. So if you want to implement a real learning culture, then obviously you should Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (06:26.476) document insights and turn them into concrete improvements for moving forward. You can also work with pre and post-mortems when you go into meetings. I'm a huge fan of pre-mortems too, like discussing before a project starts, what could potentially go wrong and already come up with contingency plans. But I would suggest that mostly for really strategic topics because it costs a lot of time and It's just not necessary for smaller, smaller things. Like I would never do this in a sales meeting before a sales deal beforehand to discuss what, what could potentially go wrong. and the last thing I'll, I will talk about that later as well in a bit more detail is that good companies are doing really well is really celebrating the serendipitous mistakes. And I'll again, I'll tell you later what I mean by that. Lars Nielsen (07:26.808) Oh, Cliff Hanger. And I would say, Pauline, thank you very much for mentioning the AAR again. I think we did it in the previous show and you actually brought it on my radar. And since you did that, I'm actually started to using it on my own. I'm a solo founder and I do my own consulting business. So I'm kind of left on my own. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (07:28.215) Yes. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (07:43.765) Yes! Lars Nielsen (07:54.918) in the day-to-day work, but I actually use it on myself. So even though you can use it on a team, you can also use it if it's just you in the company. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (07:58.946) wow, that's amazing. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (08:06.304) Absolutely, I love that Lars. Thank you for sharing that. So cool. Lars Nielsen (08:11.017) Yes, it is. I'm a cool person. Okay. Okay, let's move on. Our podcast can go off track so easy, but let's continue. Pauline, based on all the experience you have and talking to several companies about culture code and so on, what's a popular myth about dealing with failure in organizations? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (08:13.518) And humble. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (08:22.894) You Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (08:36.91) Hmm. Lars Nielsen (08:38.823) that you like to debunk for our listeners. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (08:42.522) yeah, well, so from my experience, even though so many companies actually talk a great game about having a learning culture and not blaming people and la de la de la, I think that it is still a pretty broad conception that failure is a bad thing, especially here in Germany. making a mistake or failing in something that you do is really, really marred. And I see, especially in high-paced environments, that people that make mistakes, they're getting fired or demoted, et cetera. And that clearly sends a different message to all the mouth promises about failures not being seen as bad. let me be really, really, really clear here. Blame culture, making people responsible. I mean, holding people, yes, do hold your people accountable. I'm never against accountability, but stay away from, from blame culture, stay away from, assessing the who in mistakes or failures. because if you don't do that, you're on a sure fire way to stifle innovation. And if you stifle innovation in these days, ding ding, you're gone. It's gonna, it's gonna kill your company. over the long run. Lars Nielsen (10:13.001) 100%. I so much agree with you. And again, in your experience, what's the biggest fear or hesitation leaders can have when it comes to addressing failures openly with their teams? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (10:31.294) I honestly think that many leaders simply don't have enough training to hold this kind of difficult conversations. It's not fun to have those kinds of conversations for sure. Especially if you, if you don't do them regularly and let's hope that nobody has to do them regularly. so many leaders might be afraid of either hurting their people with their critique or they simply want to avoid the tension because they think the tension is gonna. hire the team or the outcomes or people might call in sick or whatnot. And I've seen that if you shift in your own brain, in your own mind, how you see those kinds of conversations that can actually already make them so much easier. If you frame these conversations, both in your mind and when you do have the conversation with the person that you give it, that you're talking with. as a tool of fairness and loyalty and growth for your team that puts you on a completely different path because you're now reaching out a hand to help your team grow and learn and not get lost in the dark wood on their own, but actually having a guiding light. That's how I view the difficult conversations. are absolutely necessary as a leader, you have to have the difficult conversations and view them as a guiding light to bring your team back on the right path and not as something to bash them with. Lars Nielsen (12:16.393) And I think we've said that a lot of times on the show here when we're talking about these examples and your advice is like, I think we've all been there, like having those leaders that kind of just take a sledgehammer and just start knocking you on the head, right? Because you made a mistake. And then for me, it's like, I see myself as a very experienced guy in so many aspects of life. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (12:32.939) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (12:44.733) But that experience come from making mistakes. I've made my mistakes in life. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (12:47.764) Exactly. Exactly. mean, making mistakes is so human and we all do it. if you, if you never make mistakes, it means you're never growing. So, then you might stay in your comfort zone, but you definitely will not evolve. so as a leader, if you, if you can change that, that frame in your own brain, because if you're afraid of holding those difficult conversations, then either, as I said, you don't have the training to hold those. have those difficult conversations or you still view mistakes as a bad thing. And in both, both, situations, you have to change your own mind first. You have to view mistakes, both and every mistake that your team makes. It's not only a growing, growing opportunity for them, for, for the team, people on your team, but it's also a growing opportunity for you. So, and If you view it like that, and if you phrase it like that and live it like that, then you can unlock a completely new level of relationship as well with your team. Lars Nielsen (13:59.439) Exactly. So the concept of a growth mindset comes up a lot when discussing learning and resilience. How do you define a growth mindset within a corporate culture? And why is it a cornerstone for turning failures into opportunities? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (14:08.418) Yes. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (14:21.336) Hmm. so for me personally, a growth mindset is the willingness to learn something new about myself or my job every day. And I have implemented quite frequent routines into my own daily life or weekly, weekly calendar to make sure that, I can approach this correctly. So I've either blocked time in my calendar for learning slots, where I will read something new or attend a webinar or simply reflect on my own actions and achievements. Like you do with the ARR for yourself. I actually have a template set up in Notion for myself with a couple of reflective questions that I ask myself every evening and, and bigger, a bigger questionnaire that I ask myself every, every Friday evening. Just to, yeah. Be in this mindset of, okay, what went well, what could have done differently? What, what am I proud of? What am I not so proud of? et cetera, et cetera. And another thing that I do in terms of growth is I have AI challenge my prompting while I use AI. So that the AI actually teaches me how to improve my AI game. So, and since I use AI every day, there is something new I'm learning every, every single day. And to come back to the second part of your question, why this is important for every company. And I'm not saying everybody has to do it the way I'm doing, but this is just some practical examples. so if you were a company, especially since we do live in these extremely high paced and volatile times, if your employees don't continue to adapt to new skills and situations, they will. easily feel like they are falling behind and that feeling really sucks for them. And because once, once you as a person hit the spot, you will become frustrated and you will become anxious and that will not help you deliver to the best of your ability. And that will then make you feel more frustrated, et cetera, et cetera. So that's the personal perspective, right? and for the company. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (16:44.63) If your people are frustrated and don't deliver to the best of their ability, I think it's pretty clear that you don't get the best out of them that you could. And at the same time, most companies that I know don't actively make space for their people to grow and outsource, to grow. And thereby they outsource the pressure to grow and learn new things to the time where their employees are actually supposed to unwind and recharge and spend time with families and friends. That combination of I'm expecting you to grow, but I don't give you the time to grow within your work time will definitely lead to burnout and therefore destroy any competitive edge and great innovative ideas for companies. And that's what leads me to my advice for companies. Make sure that The operational work can't constantly overpower your people. Schedule specific learning slots in your team's calendars, offer trainings, mentoring, give them space to be innovative across teams, like hackathons, for example, and really make it part of your team's routine. And my tip for you as an individual, find small, consistent habits that you can personally implement to grow yourself. There is, I'm guessing a lot of people out there know him, James Clear. He's the author of Atomic Habits. And he clearly says, if you'd become just 1 % better every single day, then you'll be 37.78 % better by the end of the year. And that actually puts you ahead of most of the other people out there because people usually don't work consistently on their own growth. Lars Nielsen (18:41.225) Exactly. And that actually reminds me of a post I saw on LinkedIn today, which kind of resonates by that 1%, not in terms of growth, but it's kind of just to put it in the same perspective. That it said that actually only 1 % of everybody that's on LinkedIn is actually posting regularly on LinkedIn. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (18:50.796) Yeah. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (19:04.206) wow, yeah. Lars Nielsen (19:04.913) So if you want to be ahead of the curve, like you're saying learning 1 % every day, if you want to be ahead of the curve on LinkedIn, just start posting. Don't overthink it. Don't come up with a grand plan. Just start doing something. And I think this is actually the same thing you're saying, like just start learning something. If it's AI, which everybody wants to learn these days, then turn to AI and say, Hey, what can you learn me? And it would actually come up with a plan for you, right? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (19:33.098) Exactly. AI will give you a perfect learning plan and will give you the sources. You can commit to just reading a new book every quarter. You can find so many webinars and learning slots that are also for free. There is so much you can do out there. And the best thing to start off with from my perspective, because it's the easiest and the thing that we do the very least is do the daily reflection of what you've done well and what you are not proud of. This is super, super basic, super easy to implement. We'll take you five to 10 minutes every day. but it will show you very clearly if you're being honest to yourself, that's the main caveat here. If you're being honest to yourself, it will show you the things that you need to improve and that you can learn. Lars Nielsen (20:30.183) That one I need to implement. I'm very good at learning new stuff, but like reflecting on it? Not so good. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (20:36.078) I'm happy to share my template. Lars Nielsen (20:39.505) Yeah, but you know, probably like I saw your calendar last week when we went offline and I think that the big difference between you and I is how extremely organized you are and how much I'm just a mess, but I seem to make it work anyway. So you can please share the template. But to be honest, I probably not going to use it. my God, I'm beat too honest now. OK, let's move on. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (20:51.914) Hahaha Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (21:03.219) Fair enough. No, no, but no, it's actually, it's actually a really good point Lars, because again, I'm not saying everybody needs to do the things that I do or do them the way I do it. The most important thing is find something that works for you. Lars Nielsen (21:24.241) Exactly. 100%. Let's get back on track. If a company wants to ensure that they fail at fostering a growth mindset, what are, let's say three things they should absolutely do? And I hope you got like the caveat here that we're turning it around. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (21:37.336) He Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (21:44.686) yes, I'm loving the reverse psychology here. So if you want to fail at it, at fostering growth mindset, I would say invest in a blame culture. Make sure that your people are operationally completely overloaded because that will push more people into burnout and then the remaining people will be even more overloaded. So that's always a stellar approach. And lastly, just simply shut down any new ideas that come your way. That should do it. Lars Nielsen (22:21.907) Perfectly. Best advice ever. Can you also share a, let's call it a practical tip for leaders to start cultivating this mindset within their teams? Perhaps something they can implement this week. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (22:39.948) Absolutely. I mean, I would, one thing you can always do is hold the ARR, what I mentioned at the beginning, right? Like after finishing a project, just remember those questions. What went well, what didn't go well, what can we do better next time? And you said, that's all you need. You don't, need 50 minutes in the calendar in your team. You need those three questions and you need open ears. And, then you, then you're pretty good to go with that one. And. Another super, super easy thing that you can work on and implement like this. and right now basically is to make sure that every time you or anyone on your team says something like, I don't know, or I can't, or yeah, something like that. Encourage them to add the tiny word yet because If you say, I don't know this yet, or I can't do it yet, that already creates a major shift towards possibility in your own mindset and over time in the complete DNA of your team. Lars Nielsen (23:54.153) Perfect. I love when we have these concrete advice for people. They can actually get a takeaway. Listen to the podcast, take something away, implement it, and you will see a huge difference. Pauline, we like to share stories on the show here. Can you share a personal or professional failure that in retrospect became a significant learning opportunity for you and shaped your perspective? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (23:57.771) Yeah. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (24:23.15) Yes, absolutely. can. I might have mentioned that story before actually. But it was actually one of my biggest learning moments of my entire career that shifted everything for me. So I was in a very responsible position. I headed the international sales team for a startup that was rapidly evolving. And I was responsible for were for six account executives and the full revenue, obviously of company. And I thought I was doing a pretty good job as a leader already. And then I hired a new joiner, a very young, more, yeah, unexperienced AEs. The other AEs on the team were already pretty experienced. And after a couple of weeks working with him, he actually called me out. And he, and I loved the fact that he felt comfortable enough doing so, but, I didn't feel comfortable in that conversation at all. Cause he was like, Paulina, honestly, as my sales leader, I expect more of you. And he told me that he had expected me to do, sales coaching with him every, every week. And it just didn't do it because in my career until that point. I had never been coached by my sales leader one single time. And I had never even, and I had never had an AE who had told me that they expected me to coach them on their sales skills. And I was really, I was really struck when he said that. And I was like, Jesus, what have I been doing all this time? I have no fricking idea what I'm doing as a sales leader. if I have this massive oversight. And I asked him a couple of questions because I was really, I realized on the spot, okay, this is gold, this is gold. And he shared with me things that other sales leaders that he had worked with before were doing and so on and so forth. And he actually even gave me advice for a book. And I ordered the book immediately after that conversation. I read the book over the weekend. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (26:47.574) I started sales coaching four days after he gave me that feedback. He loved it. I loved it. And it completely, it completely changed my career trajectory and the way I have approached my leadership positions. so huge shout out, Julian, you know, it's you. huge shout out. that was probably my Best professional failure ever. Lars Nielsen (27:19.985) Again, you learn from it instead of just saying like, hey, there's nothing wrong with me. You learn from it, you evolve from it, and that just makes you a much better leader and a much better person in the end, right? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (27:22.241) Exactly. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (27:33.548) And that's exactly why I call it my best failure ever. Because yeah. And, I'm really grateful that he dared to speak up, that he told that he was really spot on, that he was really calling me out, that he was challenging me. Because I, I mean, I had been in leadership positions for five or six years already at the time, and nobody ever had challenged me on it. So without him, who knows where I would be today. So. Lars Nielsen (27:37.544) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (28:02.008) Nobody knows. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (28:03.136) I love it. Lars Nielsen (28:05.651) Paulina, thinking ahead, what trends or shifts do you foresee in how successful companies will handle and learn from failures? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (28:15.33) Hmm. so for me, my prediction for the future definitely is that the way companies handle failures or mistakes is going to make or break them. Companies that fail well and learn from their mistakes quickly and without blame will leave others far behind. And to ensure that you can reap the benefits and this competitive edge that basically will evolve out of this. I see the trend that companies will have to invest significantly, both in up-skilling, like investing in AI training, for example, and coaching and leadership training, et cetera. And at the same time, invest in mental health as well as psychological safety, because those two things next to the technical skill, feeling safe and not being overwhelmed. is just going to be the key to really unlock this, this power of a good failure culture. because, yeah, anxious or frightened people simply don't innovate. Inspired people do. Lars Nielsen (29:33.731) Exactly. And I love it. I love that last part there. I strive to... inspire people when, sometimes I do like public speakings on my startup journeys and talk to people about that. And I love it when people come up and say, Hey, thank you very much for sharing. You know, I had some learnings I can, and you can just see the kind of the, the bright light in people's eyes, right? It's the, or the fire burning in people's eyes when they get inspired. But at the same time. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (30:05.102) I don't know. Lars Nielsen (30:14.691) If you meet people that are in a toxic environment or something, you can just see that the light is just completely turned off in the ice, right? And again, like everything we're talking about, that goes for professional life and personal life as well. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (30:23.256) Yeah. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (30:28.834) And you and you're absolutely right. You can see it. You can feel it. I think you can even feel it in the energy in a room. If people are inspired, if they are actually if they actually want to be places or if they're there because they're afraid of losing their job or not finding another good job out there at the moment. And I find it so funny because in the current environment, so many employee employers are like, who? It's getting back to the good days where employees are more afraid of changing jobs because there's just not that much new things out there. But honestly, do you want to have your people in your company because they don't find anything better? Or do you want them to be there because they want to be there? It makes such a huge difference for everyone involved. Lars Nielsen (31:17.563) Exactly. Yes, it does. Yes, it does. If you could point to the one most important thing a company needs to get right to break the cycle of failure, what would that be? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (31:34.888) first of all, would actually want to spin this a bit more, a bit differently because again, I don't view failure per se as something bad. So from my perspective, companies don't need to break the cycle of failure. They need to break their shitty way of dealing with failure. And I think the best starting point for doing so is for the C level to take time and dig up stories where. failure or serendipitous mistakes created magic. And that brings me back to my cliffhanger from the beginning. What do I mean by serendipitous mistakes? There are mistakes that if they're handled really well, can turn the trajectory of an entire company around. And I'm pretty sure that very many people already know the story that I'm about to tell now. It's the story of 3M. They were inventing all all sorts of adhesives. And one day, a couple of, yeah, workers just met in the kitchen. And one was complaining because he just couldn't get his new adhesive to get really to get the right consistency and just didn't hold anything and it would just always get unstuck. And at the same time, the other worker told him that He was reading a lot all the time and then he to mark different parts in his book with and yeah, but didn't want to have like multiple paper things in there and out of this conversation they realized that having an adhesive that could be easily solved and re fixed. I don't know, I'm missing the English word right now, would actually solve the problem and that the second guy had. And then they started experimenting with it. And that's actually how the post-its were invented from this adhesive that just, that one guy just couldn't get right. And a completely unrelated problem that somebody else had. And just by talking together and by coming at, they, they invented Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (33:57.192) the product that made 3M a world renowned company. So that's what I call Serendipitous Mistake. Lars Nielsen (34:07.865) And we all know Post-its. I would say even the younger generation know it because it's actually digitalized on most computers. So you can do Post-its on a computer as well, right? So yeah, that's left a mark on history. Okay, Pauline, last one. For any listeners who are leaders or aspiring leaders, what's one piece of advice you'll give them to start building a more resilient and learning? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (34:11.018) Yes. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (34:19.938) That's true. you Lars Nielsen (34:36.869) oriented team today. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (34:41.358) Super, super good question. And my best advice that I have is remember that you are a role model to your team. So if you want to implement that kind of mindset in them, show them that you are, tell them stories about your own routines that enable your growth, share stories like where you've made mistakes and what you've learned of them. Share insights about your learnings and self-reflection, share perhaps if that works for your team, the tools, templates that you use, just share, share, share, share, share, and then make sure that your team actually has time to pursue those rituals. And then they will adopt it. And over time you can create a pocket of superpower within your company. Lars Nielsen (35:40.049) Need advice. Paulina, as always, this has been incredibly insightful. We've talked about the critical nature of learning from failure, the power of a growth mindset, concrete strategies for organizational learning and change management and heard some, I would say, pretty compelling examples. And thank you very much for sharing that. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (36:05.006) You're more than welcome. Lars Nielsen (36:06.685) Key takeaways for me at least, and I hope everybody out there are listening, is the importance of psychological safety, which I know for me is very important when I'm in a culture or in an organization. Leadership modeling or vulnerability, it's such a hard word. Vulnerability. And structured debrief, like I said, you've mentioned it before. and I implemented it towards myself, which I think is really great. Paulina, if listeners want to learn more about your work, Cochicode Foundation, or connect with you, where can they find you? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (36:50.454) You can always find us online at culturecodefoundation.com. You can find us on LinkedIn. have, yeah, with our company page. You can also find me personally on LinkedIn. You can find me on Instagram. and you can find this podcast, also on YouTube. And as always, we will link up all the handles, not just mine, but Lars's as well. and all the links in the show notes. Lars Nielsen (37:17.241) Exactly. Thank you so much Paulina for sharing your expertise on Cultures from Hell. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. We hope this gives you courage and the tools to start breaking those cycles and turning potential failures into your greatest opportunities. And don't forget to subscribe to Cultures from Hell wherever you get your podcast fix. and join us next time as we explore another challenging aspect of organizational culture. Until then, make your culture count. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (37:54.264) Thank you, Lars, for having me and thank you to all our listeners out there. Love talking with you. And also again, feel free to share your stories with us anonymously or just join us on the show. We'll tell your story. We'll have you tell your own story. Lars Nielsen (38:11.73) yes, thank you.