Diversity Burnout: When DEI Becomes Performative

Lars Nielsen (00:01.836) Welcome back to Cultures from Hell. The podcast where we shine a light on the darker corners of corporate life and find ways to make them better. Today, we are tackling a topic that strikes fear into the hearts of many. Honest feedback. No, it's the wrong one. Paulina (00:24.597) You're in the wrong script? Lars Nielsen (00:45.614) Like what the fuck is going on? Typical me. Paulina (00:48.567) you Lars Nielsen (00:54.272) Okay. This is the one. The DEY becomes. Okay, there we go. Okay, I'm just going to change it. Paulina (01:09.207) you Don't worry. Lars Nielsen (01:15.316) I am getting worried. Paulina (01:19.127) I'll just quickly blow my nose one more time because I have quite a big cold. Lars Nielsen (01:24.127) my god. Lars Nielsen (01:30.54) What does DEI stand for? Paulina (01:36.299) Diversity, inclusion, and equity. Or equality. Equality. Lars Nielsen (01:40.014) Dei. I have to remember it's Dei and not Dey. Paulina (01:47.351) Also not DEA. Lars Nielsen (01:51.95) I 100 % correct. Okay, are we ready now? I'm gonna put in a marker and here we go. Welcome to Cultures from Hell. I'm Lars and today we are diving into the hidden side of diversity work, burnout. While many companies proudly declare their commitment to diversity, equity, Paulina (01:58.785) Yes. Lars Nielsen (02:24.532) and inclusion, too often it becomes more about appearances than action. And the result? Employees left drained, frustrated and skeptical. Joining me to unpack this is Paulina, the co-founder of Culture Co-Foundation and a respected culture strategist. We'll explore the gap between DEI slogans and lived reality and how organizations can do better without burning people out. Welcome, Karl and Paulina. Paulina (03:00.406) Thank you Lars. Lars Nielsen (03:02.498) We are back again. Paulina (03:03.84) We are back again and such a burning topic to be honest, because not, I mean, today we are unpacking the one side of DIY initiatives, but at the same time, what we're seeing at the moment is that so many companies are abandoning them all together. Because they, for some reason, political believe that... Lars Nielsen (03:08.438) yes. Paulina (03:33.064) It's not important anymore. that drives me so crazy because it's proven how much more effective and efficient and successful teams are, how much better results they produce if you actually have diverse teams in order. And, I can't believe that we're heading back to the 1950s on this topic. It's just. Lars Nielsen (03:57.118) It is back to the big bully in the schoolyard. We also here in Denmark, I'm sitting in Denmark just for everybody who's new to the show. Here in Denmark we see like big, big corporates like Lego, Vestas, like big international names that kind of skipping all those things just because of that big bully. And they are afraid of speaking up and yeah, like you, I don't get it. Paulina (04:00.309) Yeah. Paulina (04:25.439) Yeah, it's just nonsense. It's just nonsense. But it feeds into our time's political narrative for some reason. And I just hope it's some short-term, short-lived mania that's gonna fizzle out as quickly as it came. So let's see. Let's see. Lars Nielsen (04:29.069) It Lars Nielsen (04:46.478) I have this hope for the world in general that, again, like I'm 50 years old. I would consider myself as a experienced person in the way of life and the way of like how the world evolves, right? And I have this conf... Sorry? Yeah. Okay, maybe not in 50 years. Paulina (05:02.913) How the wolf evolved. How the wolf evolved. Ha ha! Lars Nielsen (05:12.824) But I have this confidence that everything would pan out okay. There'll always be a counterbalance to everything that goes on in the world, right? Like for example, right now we see, okay, we're going completely off topic here. We see like the, and I'm not gonna take a political standpoint, but we see a lot of like fear just because of right wing politics. But if we go back to the 70s, it was actually left-wing policy that was the big enemy in the world, right? So I think the world just balances out over time. That's my theory. Paulina (05:53.474) I very much hope that you're right. I do believe that there are going to be hard times ahead of us. And that makes it even more important from my perspective to really get people to really form true connections and work with each other and really be there for another rather than getting sucked into this void of fear, anxiety, disruptiveness against each otherness. Lars Nielsen (05:59.667) yes. Paulina (06:21.791) I have no idea if that's actual English word, but I guess, know, whatever. So I really, really strongly believe that in order to face the times that are lying ahead of us, we need more coming together rather than drifting apart. Lars Nielsen (06:39.252) I couldn't agree more. Okay, Paulina, let's jump into this. Just to kind of get things off here, can you share a one culture related experience for your career that you'll never forget, whether inspiring or frustrating? Paulina (06:43.147) Yes. Paulina (06:57.605) actually I'll give you both because I believe that DIY is never just one story. And one story that still stings is not actually from my personal career, but it's from a friend. And I think you know her as well. She actually got promoted to a C-level role in a company, which always is a nice thing, right? but in her first senior executive leadership meeting. the CEO actually casually mentioned that she'd only been promoted to the C-level because the company had gotten so many complaints internally about the C-level being an all boys club. Paulina (07:41.176) So, mean, she took the, she took the promotion anyway. So kudos to her, but obviously this was a huge slap in the face for her. And it is a perfect example of diversity as damage control rather than actual conviction. Right. but on the other hand, I've also seen what's possible, in one company, a colleague from a different team. not my own team, but a completely different department even, shared something deep, very, very deeply personal, personal with the entire company. and that was something that they had never voiced before in their entire, in their entire life in a workplace scenario. So, and they, they trusted the entire company to treat this personal information with respect and with dignity and with openness. And so they, they dared to speak up about it. And I love that for them. And they were proven right because instead of awkward silence or any kind of judgment, they were met with real presence and care. And there was just, actually that happened in a bar at a company Christmas party. And the people on the other table heard. them telling the story and the reaction from the team. And people from the other table came to our table asking where they could apply because they would really want to work for a company like this. Right. So that was a moment of real belonging. And yes, the deeply personal information was a DIY relevant topic. That's why I'm mentioning it. Right. So DIY definitely isn't about numbers. it's about exactly those moments where you can prove that you actually living what you're preaching. Lars Nielsen (09:43.801) Thank you for sharing that. again, I really couldn't agree more that it's not about numbers. It's about, yeah, like you said, those moments where you actually figure out it can make a difference and then also that companies can use it to attract the right talent, like you're saying with your story, right? Paulina (10:03.893) Yeah. Yeah. Lars Nielsen (10:05.646) How do you define diversity burnout and why does that matter? Paulina (10:12.151) Well, so for me, diversity burnout is what happens when people, especially those from marginalized groups, are expected to carry the emotional weight of any DIY initiatives in a company without structural backup. think we've all seen it before, companies celebrating Pride Month on LinkedIn. And as much as I generally like companies doing that, You see it more often than not, but then in real life, they are ignoring the trans employee being misgendered in meetings. Or you have a diversity council that is full of folks who've already had to work twice as hard just to be heard in the first place. And now we are asking them to fix the system too. Let's just... Yeah. Overloading the wrong people. that matters because people are not infinite resources. Even though a lot of companies these days seem to believe they are, no folks, we're getting more and more finite when it comes to human resources. So you cannot simultaneously tokenize someone and expect them to lead your equity strategy. That is not inclusion, it's actually exploitation. Lars Nielsen (11:39.386) And then when did you start to notice DEI becoming more performance than practice? Paulina (11:48.792) I think when companies start holding more photo shoots than actual conversations about the topics, I call this rainbow washing. don't know if I, I mean, I'm probably not the only one who call it this, right? But they come, they will post slick DIY mission statements while ignoring every piece of feedback from, um, you need to put a pin in this. I have an abbreviation here that I don't know. Let me double check what that is. What is an ERG? Lars Nielsen (12:26.831) I don't have no clue. Paulina (12:34.972) Never heard that one before. Paulina (12:43.543) Hmm. Paulina (12:47.927) Ah, it's an employee resource group, a voluntary employee led diversity and inclusion initiative that is formally supported. Lars Nielsen (12:59.918) Okay, include that please. Paulina (13:04.087) No, I won't. Okay. Lars Nielsen (13:08.076) Okay, you just start from when company started, right? Paulina (13:13.239) So I guess it would, I would say it started when companies started holding more photo shoots than actual conversations. Right. I probably not the only one who's calling it that, but for me in my wording, it's, it's called rainbow washing. When you post slick, I am, I'm having trouble when I speak at this quickly DIY mission statement. Lars Nielsen (13:36.824) D-E-I. It's not D-E-Y. Paulina (13:42.485) Let's do this again! Thank you, Lars. You're so right. DIYers, do it yourself. Okay. Yeah, I would say it started when companies started holding more photo shoots than actual conversations. I call this rainbow washing. I mean, I'm probably not the only one who calls it that, but I definitely use that term here when... Lars Nielsen (13:46.19) Okay, I'm gonna put a pin. Are you ready? It's D-E-I. Lars Nielsen (13:54.891) Okay, let's go. Paulina (14:14.379) My company is posting slick, D E Y. Lars Nielsen (14:22.048) my god. Say it loud, Paulina. D-E-I. Yes, let's do it. Let's go again. Paulina (14:23.447) I would say when companies started hauling more photo shoots than actual conversations on this topic, right? So, I call this rainbow washing. Probably not the only one who calls it that, but there you have it. And what I mean by that is when companies post slick DEI mission statements, while ignoring every piece of feedback that they might be getting from the DEI circles or peer-led groups or whatever from within the business. And I noticed a shift when people started saying, I've been on the DEI committee for three years and nothing has changed except the pictures and the brochure. Or when Lars Nielsen (15:06.432) huh. Paulina (15:20.949) Complete initiatives are getting canned except for distributing rainbow flags during Pride Months. So doing the easy, most visible things instead of really getting into the nitty-gritty details. Lars Nielsen (15:38.735) This is actually, I would say that is actually a really hot topic in Denmark. If people don't know it, listening to the show here, I think Denmark is considered one of the most open-minded countries in the world for free speech, porno. We were the first country to to have porno in the world. But also for DEI. and so on. So we have like Pride, of course, in Copenhagen, which is a big, big thing. But this year, there's actually a lot of the big companies that used to sponsor this, has actually chosen not to do it anymore. And that's becoming a big hot topic in Denmark also that people hate some of the big, big banks in Copenhagen to hang out like Pride flags and so on during Pride month. But are they actually doing anything except for doing that, right? So that's a very hot topic in Denmark. Paulina (16:40.725) Yeah. The same here in Germany. I don't know if you've heard that the German government actually forbade for the first time in, I don't know how many years to hang the rainbow flag on top of our parliament, parliament during fright month. Yeah. It is insane. A world out there, but do you know the funny, a funny story on this topic? Really funny story. I have no idea if it's right, if it's true, if it's a true story. Lars Nielsen (16:56.781) What? Paulina (17:10.239) And I honestly, I don't care if it's true or not. It's really funny. See, so there is this rumor that Sweden, who are also very open towards DII and that they have sunk a buoy, like this underwater thing that's floating in the water, under underwater, close to the Russian border. Lars Nielsen (17:34.444) Yeah. Yeah. Paulina (17:37.718) because they share a sea border, an ocean border with Russia. And it has a sign on it that points towards Sweden and says, we've been gay since 1947 or so when they first allowed gay marriage or gay partnership. So if you want to go, if you want to get gay, come on over, cross to this side or something like, I don't recall the full name. Lars Nielsen (17:41.43) Lars Nielsen (18:04.194) you hope it's true. Paulina (18:08.009) And I really hope it's true. I, I apologize to everyone out there who knows the exact date when gay marriage became legal or partnership became legal in, Sweden, because I'm pretty sure it wasn't that early as 47, but it's probably in the sixties or someone. But I love the idea of the sign hanging there for any Russian under, what's the word? Submarine, submarine. Lars Nielsen (18:34.552) Boo-Boo-ee. A submarine, okay. Paulina (18:37.559) I was, I was going to say underwater boat because that's the literal translation from England, from Germany. U-boat. Yeah. I really hope the story is true because I find it hilariously funny. Yes, you do. Please let me know what you find out. And then maybe also add into our, our show notes, we should add, add the real. Lars Nielsen (18:44.362) Yeah, U-boat. It's called a U-boat. Lars Nielsen (18:52.278) I'm gonna factor check that one. Lars Nielsen (19:01.002) You Paulina (19:03.411) sign and the actual dates etc in the show notes just to fact check our own. Okay, we got sidetracked slightly. Lars Nielsen (19:12.972) We got so much sidetracked, yeah, that's how we do it here on the show, right? Paulina (19:18.839) you Lars Nielsen (19:21.11) Okay, I need to put a pin, something happened here, hang on. Lars Nielsen (19:29.006) I need to put a pin in here. Shit, what happened? Lars Nielsen (19:42.99) Two seconds probably, no. My text just disappeared suddenly. Lars Nielsen (19:49.295) Here we go. Lars Nielsen (19:57.582) Why, Paulina, why do so many organizations say the right things about inclusion but fail to deliver in daily practice? Paulina (20:07.755) Because it's so much easier to signal than to restructure. And I think this is also true for so many other topics. but especially for this topic, because inclusion actually requires power, redress redistribution, which is not only uncomfortable, but also frightening for the people who are holding the power at the moment. Right. And I mean, although, now I'm going to take political stance over that we are seeing out there at the moment is holding on to. white male power, right? That's what most of our, what most of politics out there is about these days. So, that is just something that on, the moment we're seeing like the really dirty strong side of it in the media, et cetera. But I also believe that many, leaders don't intentionally sabotage inclusion. They just. over trust people who look and think like them. That is super, super human. So it is proven that I will always trust a woman my age who has a similar background than I do, who's also white, obviously. I will subconsciously trust her more than I will trust a much older man, for example, and the other way around. Right? So this is just a basic. Paulina (21:41.528) evolutionary thing that's going on in our brains. And that's also why awareness itself isn't enough, right? In order to interrupt this kind of bias, you need systems, not just slogans or a little bit of self-reflection to soothe your conscience. Lars Nielsen (22:03.406) And then what red flags show that a company's DEI work is, let's call it surface level. Paulina (22:12.311) so my three most favorite one, for example, is, who's in the DEI circle. So, in multiple companies that I've worked for, they've had like those circles that were tasked with building initiatives or coming up with ideas on how to bring in more, inclusion into the company. And if you invite only. HR or safe voices that don't really speak up, then you are definitely managing optics, not inclusion. The second part is whose ideas actually do get funded. if you, if your initiatives die in budget meetings, they weren't priorities. And so I'm just remembering a story, a really toxic one. Actually, so the, the, the manager from an old friend from an old friend of mine, he told me that this manager said manager was reprimanded for making anti homosexual jokes. And while having a gay team member, so Paulina (23:37.431) Yeah. stupid, stupid, stupid mistake and, and quite an ass thing to do. And so he got reframed for that. And then he came up with the idea in order to fix that, that they should have a DEI, DEI sensitivity talk and workshop with the entire team. And when my friend asked his manager, Lars Nielsen (23:43.278) Mm-hmm. Paulina (24:07.859) should do this. And he was like, yeah, the two of us should do it. And my friend was like, dude, we're two white cis males. We can't be the ones running this show. We have no competency and no sensitivity at all. And no, we can't do it. And then it got scrapped altogether, right? Instead of just having somebody else do it. so yeah, love that story. Lars Nielsen (24:30.711) Mm-hmm. Lars Nielsen (24:35.249) What's the third one? Paulina (24:36.567) The third one is what actually happens when someone challenges the status quo, right? It's always nice if you have like ideas running around or if you have a plan to change things. But if people actually challenge that and they get sidelined or silenced or ignored publicly, then you definitely have a theater going on on that topic. Lars Nielsen (25:03.596) And how does diversity burnout show up in everyday work life based on your experience? Paulina (25:09.815) Well, the same as with any other burnout, people go silent. They stop offering feedback. They sit out meetings. They know won't change anything. So you can see high performers ghost, ghost exit or start switching. Paulina (25:28.107) Sorry, we need to put a pin in here, because that sentence does not make any sense. Lars Nielsen (25:33.491) That's a lot of pinning this episode. Lars Nielsen (25:40.216) Go. Paulina (25:41.442) So I think it's the same as with any other burnout as well. People will go quiet, they stop offering feedback, they will sit out meetings because they know they won't change anything at all after all. And those kinds of microaggressions are never addressed and then erode trust over time. Lars Nielsen (26:05.94) And then besides from the stories you already shared, because yeah, you shared a very funny one just before. Is there any stories out there or any stories you have heard like, experienced yourself that has stuck with you? Paulina (26:10.005) No Paulina (26:21.141) Yeah. Well, one really stuck with me because it was nothing really special, exactly because it wasn't special, it made it so prominent because it's, I think what happens in a lot of companies. So client of mine asked their employees to form a DIY circle and propose initiatives. And as I say, exactly like I mentioned in my not to do list, they pick the most comfortable voices. Like for example, the head of people in culture who actually saw the fact that she as a female was in a leading position as proof for the company being diverse enough. Right. and as you can imagine with those kinds of voices within the circle, not a single idea actually. was implemented and the entire thing just fizzled out and it was completely demoralizing for all the people who had wanted to join or actually had joined in order because they really wanted to push change forward. So people in that company definitely learned, just don't bother. Lars Nielsen (27:40.343) Of course, I would do the same thing, Just say like, hey, why bother? It doesn't really make sense to do anything or take any initiatives. If leaders, for the listeners out there, if leaders out there listening right now want to kind of avoid performance DEI, what's the first step they should take? Paulina (28:03.053) I think it's super, super important to really go into steep self-reflection and ordered your intentions and your actions. So you should ask yourself, who do I instinctively trust? and is this trust really justified or the mistrust on the other hand, is that justified? you can also ask what blind spots am I missing? And you can actually ask your colleagues to tell you that. And then you can continue to discuss either with yourself or with your sounding board, what can I do to do something about it? I think that could be a really good starting point. Lars Nielsen (28:51.212) And who can companies involve? I would say, how can companies involve employees in inclusion work without exhausting them? they, let's face it, most employees already today is like overwhelmed with tasks already, right? Paulina (29:08.255) Yeah. And that's exactly my first, my first rule that I would tell you, say here, don't ask for free labor or for additional labor. you either pay them for the additional work they are doing, or you can hire, obviously you can hire externally, people who don't, who's profession it is to do this for companies. that's probably the best idea. Or if you do form an internal circle, then make sure that you relieve them of other tasks in order to free up the time to really take care of this project. That's the first one. And then the second one, if you do decide to go with an internal circle, then rotate the load. So don't keep tapping in the same people from underrepresented groups. And the third one would be to start small and act fast, right? A visible win builds trust faster than a two year strategy doc or, and it's better if you, if you showcase something within a couple of weeks rather than having this big, beautiful campaign that runs like six months in or so. it's like, it's the microdosing kind of thing. It's probably. much more helpful and much more believable. Lars Nielsen (30:37.088) And what's one, let's say one concrete practice you've seen work well out there? Paulina (30:44.047) I'm a huge fan of bias interruption in hiring already. So you can train your interviewers. I have seen this with one of my last companies that I personally worked for where they actually had unconscious bias training as mandatory for every leader who was going to do interviews. You can, and we also had a DIY representative that trained interviewers on, Yeah. Blocking out their own unconscious bias. They would also come in with different perspectives. Once you would identify, okay, I might be unconsciously biased here. I need a second opinion. So please come in with me and give your opinion as well. Then we use structured scorecards, which is always a huge bonus. And I also very strongly believe in if that is possible. And I think it should be possible because HR, if HR receives applications, they can always remove the pictures. So try to take our pictures, try to take out, agenda identities. So they have a bit of, a bit more of a blind hiring going on. there's the story from. one American orchestra who started blind auditions so that the musicians would actually play behind a curtain and the rest of the orchestra that was tasked with choosing their new colleague couldn't actually see who was performing. And with that technique alone, they changed the female to male ratio within the orchestra by 25 % within just two years time or something like this. It was incredible. And yes, I am very aware that DIY diversity does not mean equality between men and male and female. This is just an anecdote, but say those kind of things. If you can make it as blind as possible and as detached it as much as possible from personal Paulina (33:11.561) opinions and really break it down by using scorecards, for example, on actual skill. and I'm also a big fan that if you do have a hiring, committee, which you usually do, then ask in debriefs, what assumptions are we making right now about the fit of that person and who might see this candidate differently? And should we bring this person in to, yeah, help us make a decision here? Lars Nielsen (33:41.815) And now that we are on the topic, I just realized that I actually want to share a personal story on DEI from Soltmate where we actually worked together. I think it was before your time. can't really remember. So I was in charge of sales for the Scandinavian countries and I was sitting in Copenhagen. had one colleague at that point. We had William. Paulina (33:57.708) Okay. Paulina (34:09.547) Mmm. Lars Nielsen (34:09.71) should shout out to William, one of the greatest SDRs I've ever, ever had. and we were looking for, what was the position? can't really remember, but we were looking for a new position. I think it was like in, in, in tech or development and so on. And I was called up from the head of HR saying like that we had a candidate in Copenhagen. Can you conduct the interview? I was like, sure, no problem. And I'll bring William to the interview as well. And she sent us like 10 things we couldn't ask about, know, like, what is your preferred, like, you know, sexual questions or religion and stuff like that. And I was like, sure, of course. And then we went to this cafe to meet up with this guy to sit down and have a talk. And we sat down for maybe 20 minutes, like randomly talking back and forward and so on. And then the guy went to the toilet and William looked at me and he said like, I was just going to say you already broke seven out of the 10 rules you couldn't ask about. I was like, really? I? Paulina (35:16.087) Yeah Paulina (35:22.391) you Lars Nielsen (35:22.496) I probably never going to be a very good HR person because I just speak my mind too often. So yeah, but he ended up getting hired. Paulina (35:29.631) Yeah. And I mean, the questions that you just shared, honestly, they are forbidden for a reason, right? At least in Germany, in German labor law, they are forbidden for a reason. Lars Nielsen (35:42.198) Yes. Same in Denmark. Did I just admit to break the law? Paulina (35:51.242) It's not punishable by law, I think. And, I mean, who knows? He might have sued if he hadn't gotten the job. don't know. Lars Nielsen (35:53.494) thanks. Lars Nielsen (36:08.416) Okay, Pauline, let's continue. What's a common misconception about DEI that you want to set straight here on the show? Paulina (36:16.439) I'd like to reiterate on what I said at the beginning, like it is not a people problem. It's a systems problem, right? Because DEI has so much to do with culture in a company and culture is built in habits, feedback loops, decision processes, and not in passion projects. so, and it is way too important a topic to... single it out or push it into into projects. It is something that should be part of your cultural DNA in a company because it is. better for the people and the business if you do it right. and you can't train away unconscious buyers if your structures keep reinforcing it. So it's a systems thing. Lars Nielsen (37:13.032) Let's turn things upside down. If a company wanted to fail fast at DEI, what would they do? Paulina (37:24.471) I would say appoint one person to own this project and then never talk about it again. And I'll give out bonus points if they are a woman or a person of color and you don't give them any budget or decision power. Lars Nielsen (37:43.06) Easy. Paulina (37:44.161) Super easy, right? I think the F up parts are the easiest bits of podcast. Lars Nielsen (37:53.519) In the beginning of this episode, we talk about like how the world is going to... I'm just going to say it here on the podcast, it's going to shit. But looking ahead, what gives you hope when it comes to DEI? Is there anything that gives you hope? Paulina (38:10.775) Mm-hmm. Well, I do see that a lot of people are done with lip service and they are starting to realize that there are companies out there who are just interested in profit making and other companies that are interested in actually changing things for the better. And I think we're seeing it, we're seeing those two parties drifting apart, but the parties that are actually want to And parties, don't mean political parties, but groups of people. And I think the people that really want to change things for the better, they are asking sharper questions. They are leaving cultures that drain them and calling out the disconnect here. And I also think that there are leaders that are listening just not just to be on the right side or specifically nowadays. knowingly and willingly being on the wrong side of this point in time. Cause I do seriously believe that it's going to swing back again to because yeah, it just has to, it just has to. And so many leaders start to understand that psychological safety drives performance and that. Diversity, inclusion, equality are such important parts of psychological safety for the entire workforce. Lars Nielsen (39:48.527) couldn't agree more. If kind of getting to the end of today's episode, if leaders take one action after this podcast, what should it be? Paulina (40:03.531) Ask yourself and then your team who isn't being hurt and what blind spots are we missing? And really, really drill down on your own unconscious bias. There are super good online trainings for it. And you can also just look around you and see, okay, whose people are, which people are most similar to myself? And then. And then really be truly honestly ask yourself, okay, am I treating them differently? Am I giving them the benefit of the doubt more often? Do I praise them more often? What not. And then, don't just listen to the answer that you give yourself or that your team gives yourself. Fund it, staff it, build a system around it to make sure that you can actually change it. Lars Nielsen (40:57.976) Paulina, as always, thank you for helping us, me and the listeners, cut through the noise and focus on what really matters when it comes to company culture. In today's episode, we have explored how performance DEI trains people, how to recognize the signs, and most importantly, what leaders can do to build genuine cultures of belonging. To learn more from Paulina and her work, Please let us know where they can find you and how they reach out to you. Paulina (41:31.872) You can always find me at LinkedIn. and you can find the company as well on LinkedIn and on culture code foundation.com. And, you can also find me on Instagram. will share all the social media handles on the show notes in the, in the show notes in the show notes. And as always my shout out to everyone out there. we would love to share your story. I'm telling so many. Lars Nielsen (41:48.738) Yes. End of show notes. Paulina (42:01.406) stories from my own career and from my clients, but we always love to have live guests here or share personal stories anonymously. If you don't feel comfortable being on the show yourself, so you can always reach out to Lars or myself through the social media handles that'll be in the show notes. Lars Nielsen (42:22.67) 100 % and again, just have to underline that we'll keep anything that you say completely anonymous out there. So don't hesitate to reach out to any of us. And if you enjoyed this episode of Cultures from Health, please subscribe, share with someone in your network and keep the conversation going. Until next time, have a great day. Paulina (42:30.7) Yes. Paulina (42:49.067) And before we end this, want to self correct. I have actually Googled the sailor sign in Sweden in the meantime, and it is, it was placed there in 2014. So 11 years ago. and it features, it's a, it features a guy riding sailor with pink hearts that are actually illuminated. Lars Nielsen (42:50.798) Ugh. Lars Nielsen (42:58.68) You Paulina (43:16.585) And it displays the message, welcome to Sweden, gay since 1944. So that's actually when Sweden legalized homosexuality. That's insanely early. I'm so proud of you, Sweden. And on top of that, it transmit the phrase, this way, if you are gay, pointing to Sweden, in Morse code. So a submarine, because obviously from a submarine, you won't be able to see the sign, right? But the Morse code will morse this to submarines driving by, floating by, swimming by. have no idea. Lars Nielsen (43:57.39) Then let's end this episode giving the biggest shout out to Sweden for doing this. Paulina (44:03.295) Yes. Lars Nielsen (44:06.69) Pauline, thank you very much. Until next time. Paulina (44:09.793) See you next week, Lars.