When your manager crosses the line

Lars Nielsen (00:01.434) Welcome to another episode of The where we uncover the toxic workplace cultures that people endure and more importantly, how we can change them. I'm your host Lars. And today we are talking about a situation that too many people have faced when your manager steps over the line. my God. I have tried that so many times. Joining me is Paulina, my co-host and the expert in company cultures who will share insights into the issue. And she'll also tell us a story of Antonia, a young professional who encountered extreme pressure from her manager earlier in her career. Welcome Paulina. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (00:53.17) Thank you Lars. And I still can't get over this specific voice at the beginning. It's so fun. And yeah, interesting topic that we've picked. Let me just ask you a quick question. You said there, you tried that so many times stepping over the line, or did you mean you tried to have your manager not step across the line for you? Lars Nielsen (01:19.468) I see where you're going. You're trying to put me on the spot here on the show. No, would, hey, to be very honest, we want to be honest in this podcast. I have for certainly tried that a manager of mine has stepped over the line. But to be in all fairness, when I was younger, I have tried to stepping over the line myself. I can tell you a story. Okay. Let's, let us be brutal honest on the show here, right? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (01:29.637) Absolutely. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (01:37.383) Hmm. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (01:49.616) Absolutely, I wouldn't want anything else. Lars Nielsen (01:51.188) And we're going off script now. We have a script for these shows going completely off script now. When I was young, which is many, many years ago. This is, let me think back. This is about 28 years ago. So that's a lot of years ago. I was young. I was the manager in a retail store in Oslo, Norway. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (02:01.394) I was just about to it yesterday. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (02:10.471) Okay. Lars Nielsen (02:20.27) I was, it was my first manager job ever. I wanted to perform, you know, I want to be the boss, know, boom, boom, boom, take this store to the next level. And I had only women working for me. It was within cosmetics and creams and stuff like that. So only women working in the store. I was sitting in the office and this one morning, this young girl, she was probably 20, 21 comes in and she's crying. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (02:34.492) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (02:50.626) She's like, hey, gotta go home. I have to go home. I'm in so much pain. And I got worried, of course, and said like, hey, what's wrong? Can I do anything? Tell me what's wrong. And she said, yeah, I have to tell you, it's my periods. And it causes me so much pain. And to be honest, I had no clue that women's period could cause so much pain. I'm sorry to say, I'm putting myself on the spot here. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (03:01.341) Yeah. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (03:05.328) Okay. Lars Nielsen (03:18.068) And I was like, nah, come on, pull yourself together and go work again. I'm honest. I'm honest. Like 10 minutes later, I got a phone call from my mom, from my mom saying like, you're sending my daughter home now. I'll come down and beat your ass. And I actually learned a lesson because I, one of the other women that worked in the store, she actually came into me later and said like, Hey Lars, when, when women have periods, it can actually be. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (03:24.378) I love it. Lars Nielsen (03:47.586) really, really painful. And you have to understand this. So that was a very honest story from my side where I so much crossed the line. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (03:57.0) Thank you so much for sharing the story, Lars. I mean, we've known each other for years and years and have never heard the story. And I think it's extremely valuable that you share this kind of vulnerability in the show. I appreciate it so much. Thank you for that. And I think that's a super important point. Every manager will make mistakes. Every manager will come into situations that they regret afterwards. I think the important part is learning from that mistake. Lars Nielsen (04:10.19) You're welcome. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (04:24.276) and to evolve from from there on in. So it's and this is not also super important for the show, right? It is not about being perfect. It's about staying open and being self-reflective and leaning into the change and the and the uncomfortable feelings that come with that. So and by the way, the next time I see you, I will bring a period simulator so you can experience. how much fucking pain the period brings. Everybody is solving a lot of trouble, my friend. Lars Nielsen (04:57.385) no! I'm so happy we're doing this online and not in the studio together. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (05:07.976) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (05:08.086) Okay, Paulina, let's get on with the show. Let's start with the basics. Again, we are talking about managers crossing the line and you are going to share a true story today, which I'm looking forward to. But let's start with the basics. When we talk about managers and people that are listening and not watching on video, can see that I'm doing quotation marks, is stepping over the line. What actually do you mean or do we mean about this? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (05:21.394) Yes. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (05:37.414) Yeah, thank you. So stepping over the line as a manager, obviously has a lot of facets. So you can step across the line in so, so many ways. and from some you can recover from others, you can't, and the different levels also have different levels of psychological impact on your people. So we come back to the thing that I said last week, responsibility, being aware of your responsibility that you have for your people is so crucial here. So. couple of examples, like on the very far end, obviously, sexual harassment, that is probably the biggest abuse of power that you can potentially commit in the workplace, or not just the workplace. Other abuses of power are more subtle, and can range from inappropriate jokes, to overly drastic reactions to all punishments for small mistakes. So it's a really, really big field. I think the common theme here always is either abuse of power or lack of interest in your people and potentially both of it. Lars Nielsen (06:54.766) We said in the beginning that we are going to share this story here. And I know you kind of prepped me for the story, but I haven't heard the whole story. So I'm actually looking forward to this one. So please start sharing the story and maybe get some context to the story as well, if you have any. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (07:16.006) Yes, of course. So again, as always, we're trying to keep this as confidential as possible. So this is the story of Antonia. The story happened a couple of years ago, but she shared it with me just this week. And it was actually in one of her first roles. So she was quite young. She was quite inexperienced. She was very, very keen to prove herself in her first role. And she had a female leader. So just for everyone out there, it's not just men who make mistakes. Lars Nielsen (07:52.622) Thank you very much for stressing that after my story. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (07:57.416) And, yeah, she experienced a situation where she was the only one in her team that could perform a certain task. yeah, let me take a short step back here. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (08:23.664) together my thoughts. Okay. I'm, I'm, back again. and, then they, and, and her manager was in the sales department and I'm coming from sales. know the pressure that happens in the sales department. I know that a lot of things tend to happen on the last minute and need extra care and extra work, but usually, you know, that upfront. You know that at the end of the month or the end of the quarter, certain tasks need to be done, need to get done. You need to take special care if you want to close a customer and onboard them within the right timeframe. It's a high pressure environment. think nobody actually doubts that. So, managers in sales usually also experience a lot of stress and pressure from above. And that is one of the things that I've seen here is that if a manager, a middle manager is not good at like blocking the pressure that they get from going further down, then that's a huge problem. Because obviously the pressure builds up the more it rolls down the hill, the more it will build up. And it's a very tough job to make sure that you. block out this pressure and this manager of Antonia, she didn't manage to do it. And she didn't manage to set the expectations at a certain point during this career. And just also to point out, it was not end of the month or end of the quarter kind of situation. So Antonia was in, what's the English word for it? I don't even know. So it was the end of the day. Uh, she had left the office hours ago already. She was at a private birthday party from, from a really close friend. And it was basically after, after 9. And she got a message on her phone, on a private phone from a number that she didn't know that she didn't recognize. And it was a super long message saying that she needed to go back to the office right now because her manager had just closed another client and they needed to be on board ASAP. Like on that day. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (10:47.058) and it couldn't wait and she was the only one who could do this. And, she, didn't really matter where she was at and what she was doing. She needed to do it now. And so then Antonio realized her boss had spent obviously time to research a private phone number because she also had a company phone, but the company phones were off during the off times and the weekend per company policy, which actually is a good thing, right? So, but her manager sidestepped that, that policy that was specifically in place to prevent people getting contacted off in their off time and contacted her on her private number and really pressured her into coming back to the office late in the evening to get this task done. And Antonio got really flustered because as I said at the beginning, she really wanted to... Lars Nielsen (11:16.471) Really good thing. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (11:45.512) prove herself, she really wanted to show up. But at the same time, she was like, I'm at this, I'm at this birthday party. I can't just leave now. This is one of my closest friends. can't, I need to be here as well. And then she talked to her manager and she actually started crying on the phone. and then her manager was like, really? Yeah. Okay. I'll call you back in a minute. I'll try to figure something else out. And like, in a really, in really degrading tone. And then she called half an hour later. for this entire time, basically the birthday was ruined for her, the birthday party, because she was tense all of the time. And then her manager called back and said, yeah, I found a solution. You don't need to come in by. So she didn't check in with her, how she was doing. She didn't apologize for disturbing her in her off time. She didn't apologize for like making a big fuss about something that could be solved in a different way. And, Tonya also shared that her manager never brought this topic up again. So it not only did not happen in this phone call that they, that she tried to remedy any of that pressure that she exerted. No, it never happened. Lars Nielsen (13:03.598) That's kind of an insane story, but I would also say that I'm pretty sure that it happens more often than we think. We're managers. Sorry, Pauline, just go ahead. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (13:15.792) Yes, I think so too. I think actually, I believe that all of the stories we share here happen so much more often than we think that they do. That doesn't make them any less insane though. Lars Nielsen (13:31.648) And there was actually a quote I wanted to say in the last episode, but I forgot about it when we talked about it. And I know this is from a comic book and it's from Spider-Man. I think it's Peter Parker's grandfather or father that says that with great powers comes great responsibilities. And I know it's kind of ecclesiastical to say that, but I think all managers should remember that. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (13:47.88) The answer. Yes, it's his uncle, think. But it's so true. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (13:59.744) politicians too, by the way, just saying out of apparent reason. Lars Nielsen (14:03.694) Political climate. no, no, no, we are not going down that rabbit hole on this podcast. We've got to do a complete new podcast about that instead. No, but back to the topic, Paulien, I would say that, and again, thank you for sharing the story and thank you to Antonia for sharing that story as well. Because I think it's a very important topic to talk about, like as a manager, like... Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (14:11.324) Nope. Nope. Lars Nielsen (14:36.322) And yeah, okay, I'm getting kind of ramped up now. I'm getting warmed up now that the company has a policy in place to protect the employees from this happening, right? And that managers just overrules that or steps on it. For me, that manager should have tried to figure everything out themselves. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (14:40.391) you Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (15:02.436) Yes. And I mean, last, last week I said, like the manager doesn't have to be the per the best person for the subject matter, but yes, they should be able to do the base tasks, that they oversee as well, because they do need to understand like the basics of what is happening. And, and yeah, but we'll get into it a little bit later. I'm sure of it. I don't want to. Lars Nielsen (15:17.131) Mm-hmm. Lars Nielsen (15:27.982) Yeah. And I would also say again, one thing is the base task. Another thing is if they need help, there's a big difference calling somebody up and saying, or texting them saying, you have to come to the office now and saying, hey, I'm very sorry to disturb you in your off time. I'm in a kind of a pressured situation. Would you be able to help me? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (15:49.084) Yeah, exactly. Or just say, okay, is there, can you just walk me through it on the phone maybe and just tell me what I need to do? There are ways that you can handle the situation completely differently, for sure. Yes. Lars Nielsen (15:55.906) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (16:01.876) Exactly. Back to Antonia's story, Paulina. Based on this experience that she had with this manager, were there any kind of, let's call it long-term, impacts that happened to her in terms of both that job and in her, let's call it everyday life? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (16:26.554) not necessarily in her everyday life, but for sure for her entire career that follows that. That is what makes me super, super sad because that also isn't an individual case. That is something that happens so many times, especially when as an unexperienced, a young employee, have managers, managers that just do bad things or shitty things. Again, I don't think that her manager did this out of spite or out of being evil because she didn't know better, because she wasn't trained better, because she didn't care enough, but not because of spite. And Antonio shared with me that even now, which is years later since that story happened, she finds it really, really hard to trust both her managers and her colleagues just to have her back. So she's constantly in a kind of danger zone. know, she's, she always scans for dangerous situations, dangerous reactions, and she can't fully relax in the workplace. And that just goes to show. how long lasting the effects of this kind of behavior can be. They don't have to be, but they can be. Especially, just to be very, very clear again, making a mistake isn't the end of the world. And I think Antonio would agree with me if her manager had tried to remedy the situation afterwards, if she had come up to her, if she had apologized, if she had to, if she had worked with her on how to approach a situation like that together in the future. That would, would be a completely different story. It's not about being perfect, never making a mistake, but it's about owning the mistakes and learning from it and admitting that you fucked up and, being interested in how to fix this for your employees so that they don't go through their career with a shadow behind them. Lars Nielsen (18:27.982) Okay, so this story here, it of brings us to the concept of psychological safety. she's getting warmed up now. Can you explain to me and the audience out there what it is and why it is so crucial for a workplace? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (18:34.652) Yes, one of my favorite topics. you Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (18:50.184) Yes. So, um, disclaimer, as always, I'm not a psychologist, but, um, I do know that psychological safety is just a, speaking, a base need of all human beings. If we don't feel safe, we will constantly be scanning our environment for potential dangers. And that obviously heightens our stress response, our cortisol levels, and all the beautiful effects. Beautiful. Sorry for the listeners. I'm quoting, I'm putting quotation marks around the beautiful, the beautiful effects that come with heightened cortisol levels and heightened stress levels. and leaders and teams alike can prevent this or fix it by constantly sending so-called belonging cues. Belonging cues are small, but frequent signs that lets us know that we are connected, that we share a future, that we care about each other, and that we met in the workplace. And cues like this just simply switch off this vigilance mode in our brain and allows us to truly connect to other people. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (20:09.692) Does that make sense? Does that make sense? Lars Nielsen (20:09.878) And then what, sorry? Hey, it makes perfectly sense. I was just thinking about again, like you had the disclaimer that you're not a psychologist and trust me, I am not either. But the way you describe it, would say that to me it kind of sounds like what PTSD is. Poptraumatic stress syndrome. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (20:35.208) Well, I wouldn't go this far. but psychological safety and PTSD definitely do share common traits, I would say. if you, psychological unsafety and PTSD. Yeah, because you're in this constant vigilant mode and, but PTSD, as far as I know, comes with rampant flashbacks and with like, really feel feeling being drawn back into the situation. but on the other hand, as I said before, if you do feel psychologically unsafe in the workplace, it can also have like this long-term effects on your psyche. Lars Nielsen (21:24.846) And if we have somebody listening to the show out there that knows more about PTSD than we do, please reach out and we'll be happy to have you on the show and talk more about it. And of course, more in depth on how workplace cultures might actually trigger stuff like that. these cues, Paulina, what happens when these cues are missing? What are the signs that a workplace is Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (21:47.837) Yes. Lars Nielsen (21:54.443) is unsafe. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (21:55.6) Okay, so maybe the first point, let me take the first part of the question first. So when those cues are missing, what will happen again, is that we're in constant vigilant mode. And even if we are super resilient to stress, or super resilient to pressure and robust, part of our unconscious mind will always be expecting danger. And that will lead to you not Lars Nielsen (22:00.654) All right. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (22:24.312) You're simply not delivering your best results because the part of your brain, a part of your energy, part of your attention and focus will simply be occupied with other things. And so that it is actually also for, for entrepreneurs and lead team leaders alike. It is actually really crucial to make, to create a psychological safety and psychologically safe environment so that your people can perform at their best. Lars Nielsen (22:50.232) Yeah. Okay. And if somebody listening kind of recognized himself in Antonio's story, what would you suggest that they do? How can they, let's call it navigate these situations and how could they navigate without putting their own job at risk? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (23:00.262) Yeah. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (23:13.088) that is, that's a really, really good question. I probably don't have an answer for every single situation. It very much depends on, the amount of stress and pressure that you, that you feel or amount of unsafety. And it also depends on, is it just unsafe in your department or is it, does it feel unsafe in the entire business? Usually it's the later. because if the business really pays attention to a psychologically safe environment, then the teams will do so too. And I think my number one advice as always is try to talk to your manager. Try to talk about what their expectation is towards you, how you can make sure to really fulfill that expectation and also talk to them with you need in order to be at your best. I think that's, and again, that doesn't always help. That doesn't always work, but I would always try, try to have this kind of conversation. Next step can be to escalate it to go through HR or go through your manager's manager. but I would definitely not recommend doing that before you've had an honest and open conversation with your direct manager. Lars Nielsen (24:40.204) good point. I think it's always important to go straight to the person you have an issue with. I know that can be very hard for a lot of people, especially if that manager don't kind of put out a comfortable vibe within the workplace that you are comfortable going to them. But I think it's very important. And I think also that Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (24:59.132) Yes. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (25:07.035) Absolutely. Lars Nielsen (25:10.406) I was listening to this podcast like long, long time ago, where they got on the topic about divorces. And there was this guy who's been in counseling with his wife about like, do they like, to save the marriage. And they talked about like visiting each other's islands. they said, like, so you're on one island, your wife is on another island, you have to visit the other one's island to kind of see their perspective. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (25:25.746) Mm. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (25:30.802) That's beautiful. Lars Nielsen (25:39.286) And that learned me the phrase that you always have to look at the world through the other one's eyes. So if you have a manager that is, let's call the person like bossy or like, you have to come to the office right now and so on. Instead of saying, he or she is such a, now I'm swearing on the podcast, such a dick and so on. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (25:45.458) That's a beautiful picture. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (26:02.856) Heart furnace. Lars Nielsen (26:09.108) maybe step back and say like, okay, maybe that person is stressed. Maybe that person is going through hell in the personal life. Maybe they are ill or they have a manager that's picking on them and so on. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (26:25.544) That's a really, that is a really, really good point. And it's probably true very, very often. And I, I like this picture and love this picture with the different islands. I've always had the picture of draw a six in front of you on your side of the table. And then if you go to the other side of the table, like where your manager would sit, it looks like a nine, right? So similar, similar imagery behind it. But, and I think it's always a good point to try to understand where your manager is coming from. I also think if you don't have a very emotional counterpart, for example, like a very rational, very numbers-driven person, try to speak their language, try to talk about it, also try to make clear that it's more about, in those kinds of situations, make sure it's more about driving. performance or how you can be at your best rather than talking about emotions, because you will not reach unemotional people when you talk about emotions. That's unfortunately that's true. But I fully understand that if you're triggered in a way, not a big fan of the word triggered because it's overused as much as the word toxic is overused these days. But if something, if you are in emotional state and if you are anxious, if you are fearful, then it is super, super hard to distract this, this emotion and go into this conversation completely rational. So, usually taking a couple of days just to simmer yourself down to, to get out of this stress response, because that is actually something that I know from my therapy. when you are in a stressful situation, especially when it reminds you of a past hurt, then you're amygdala, which is like your, most ancient part of our brain. Please, any psychologist listening and saying, this is nonsense what you're telling, please correct us. Reach out. But if I remember this correctly, then the super ancient part of your brain starts firing. Lars Nielsen (28:38.498) Reach out, we'd love to have you on the show. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (28:47.568) in back of your head and that actually blocks out every rational part of your brain. for a certain amount of time, you will not physically be able to have a rational response. And my therapist once said that can that that process lasts at least 20 minutes, but can last up to 48 hours. So taking at least half an hour and potentially even a couple of days. makes a lot of sense before you talk to your manager after a really hurtful, stressful, pressured kind of situation. And just to be also very clear, because we talked about crossing the line and there are crossing the lines where you don't talk to your manager about it. You straight go to HR or your manager's manager or even a lawyer to escalate those situations like sexual abuse. No way are you going to talk to your fucking manager who sexually harassed you. You are going to make sure to fry his fucking ass. just, they, sorry. Yes, you're right. They, it can go both ways. We both know that it's more likely to happen one way than. Lars Nielsen (29:47.054) You Lars Nielsen (29:53.494) Now you're saying he, Paulina. thank you very much. That could go both ways. Lars Nielsen (30:05.166) We are not all evil. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (30:07.282) But you're not all evil, yes. Lars Nielsen (30:09.486) Thank you very much. Okay, Paulina, so we talked about from Antonia's side, how she could have handled the situation or given advice, right? So from the other side of the table, from the leadership side, what can managers do to ensure that they're kind of creating a safe and supportive environment? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (30:30.568) That's the beauty of it. There are so many things that you can do as a manager or as a leader to really create a psychologically safe environment. And they don't take much. It brings me back a little bit to what I said last time, curiosity in your people, people-centricity, a positive mindset is basically already a good starting point. And the first thing I would do, especially if you take over new team, is to have a meeting with the entire team and discuss expectations and rules of engagement among the group. Because that will already give like a ground set of, okay, we're in this together. We are doing things a certain way because we as a group decided to do it this way. So obviously don't just tell them how are you going to do it, but work it out together. Get their perspectives and ask them like, Ask them what energizes them, what drains them, what they need to be at their best. then, yeah, build up a specific set of rules of engagement for your specific group. And in that meeting, you should already normalize uncomfortable conversations or the hard conversations, because that is something that is crucial. That is always going to happen if you are in a manager role. or a leading role, you will always have to have difficult conversations. So I've done this with every team that I led. And I don't know if you remember that Lars, that in the very beginning, I would always share some deeply personal information about myself to share some vulnerability and just to make sure, okay, I'm a human being. I make mistakes, but I'm committed to growing myself and Please let me know, give me everything that you, that you, every feedback that you have for me so that I can keep growing. And then I will also make it very clear that it's my job to help my team grow and that to help people grow that requires hard conversations. It is my job to ask the hard questions, to challenge them, to push them out of their comfort zone and to... Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (32:56.58) make sure that by doing so that they can develop their own skillset. I truly believe that this is the job of any people leader to be invested. If you make clear that you have good intentions, like the development of my team, and you're not coming out of a place of spite when you do give feedback, And when you make that super clear from the beginning and then actually live by that, obviously, this sets an amazingly safe space for people just to, see, okay, even if we do have the super hard conversations, that's all good. That's fine. When nobody's getting killed, nobody's getting, degraded, nobody is getting into trouble. It is because the intention behind this is the right is right. And it's directed towards me as a person. And I think that makes all the difference. There are a of other things that you can do. I've truly, truly recommend the Culture Playbook from Daniel Coyle. It's an amazing book with super actionable things that you can do in any kind of situation just to create more safety or share more vulnerability. So love it. One of the best books I've ever read in terms of culture. Lars Nielsen (33:57.656) makes a lot of difference. Lars Nielsen (34:25.646) We'll put a link in the show notes. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (34:28.198) In the show notes. Yes. And potentially also something super important because it is a very common topic these days. If you do have a remote or hybrid workplace, make sure to set aside time for real life interpersonal interactions regularly, not just once, but frequently because I love Home Office. I've been working remotely, remotely for the past seven years, more or less. but I've also always really enjoyed the in-person time because it, does build a more solid interpersonal connection if you do see people in person. It's just a fact. Lars Nielsen (35:16.546) Of course it does. think that everybody knows that. I know that some introverts, extroverts, some get fired up by meeting other people. It might drain other people. And I'm one of those that I'm completely drained when I'm with people for too long. But I enjoy it when I'm with the people. It's just afterwards that drains me and I need to relax. But I love interacting with people. I'm a fitness coach in my spare time. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (35:35.112) Mm. Lars Nielsen (35:46.678) I do that four times a week. And sometimes I was like, fuck, I have to go. Because sometimes it's like six in the morning and I wake up and I'm man, I gotta go. I'm so tired. But every time I come back from those classes, I'm always like smiley and happy and so on. Because I get out, interact with people, you know, you get those high fives, you get those smiles and so on. It is just very important that we remember that. Cool, Paulina. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (36:03.538) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (36:16.372) As always, we are running out of time because we have so much at heart and that's why we... Let's aim for 300 episodes of this podcast because we have so much that we need to talk about. So we covered a lot of topics today from Antonio's story to importance of psychological safety at the workplace and so on. Any takeaways, like key takeaways, let's keep it short, takeaways that you want to say out to any person out there that might be in a similar situation as Antonia's. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (36:53.192) Hmm. So I think for people like Antonia, it is super important to hear that you're heard, you're seen, and things like this shouldn't happen in the workplace. Unfortunately, they do quite frequently. try, if possible, try to not take it personally because it usually says more about your manager than it does about yourself. try to allow the emotions to, to run out of the situation for you personally, and then try to talk to your manager. And, if, always, mean, we've said it before, it's easier said than done, but if certain situations keep arising, if you find it really, really hard to, to relax after work, if you find it really, really hard to sleep. to really rest, get real rest into your body, then it's time to have hard conversations with yourself, with your manager, or actually consider leaving the position. Because there's only so much you can do from your perspective, from your end. But again, nobody is completely powerless out there. Lars Nielsen (38:22.414) If they are, reach out to us and we'll gladly, I wouldn't say help, but give advice at least, right? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (38:29.584) Yeah, we'll give advice and we'll bring, we'll shed some light on these situations. Lars Nielsen (38:36.301) Perfect. Paulina, as always, a great, great pleasure to spend some time with you. Thank you to everybody that's listening out there. And as always, if you have anything you want to share with us, any story you want to share, you're welcome to come on the show and talk about it. We will be happy to have you. If you want to share, but you want to be completely anonymous. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (38:41.49) same. Lars Nielsen (39:01.4) just send us a message and of course we'll keep everything anonymous at all times. There will be links to both Paulina's Instagram and LinkedIn and my LinkedIn in the show notes. So just connect with us and reach out if you have any story to tell us. Thank you for listening and Paulina have a great day. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (39:25.32) Thank you, Laris. You have a wonderful day too. And the same goes to all of our listeners. Enjoy your beautiful day. Enjoy your beautiful weekend. no, we're showing, see guys, we're recording this on a Friday and we're releasing it on Tuesday. So when you listen to this, your weekend will be longer away. Have a great week then. Jesus. Lars Nielsen (39:37.531) my god. Lars Nielsen (39:44.322) Have a great week. Bye Paulina. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (39:51.25) Bye!