When You Get Driven Towards Burnout

Lars Nielsen (00:01.824) Welcome back to Cultures from Hell. The podcast where we dissect the toxic environments that can wreak havoc on your professional lives. Today we have... I'm just going to start from all over. We're going to start over. It's just my throat. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (00:19.88) you Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (00:26.537) What's going on there? Lars Nielsen (00:30.286) Okay, we're gonna start all over again. three, two, one. Welcome back to culture. Okay. The monster didn't Okay, last try. Three, two, yes. Three, two, one. Welcome back to cultures from hell. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (00:47.263) Three times a charm. Lars Nielsen (01:00.258) The podcast where we dissect the toxic environments that can wreak havoc on your professional lives. Today, we are diving deep into a topic that's all too common. Burnout. We'll be exploring a real life scenario of someone pushed to the brink of the manipulative tactics used to try and keep them there. Joining me is Paulina. a company culture expert and the co-host on the show to help us understand and navigate these dangerous situations. Hi Pauline. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (01:41.541) Hi Lars, good to be here again. Lars Nielsen (01:43.934) Yes, we are back another Friday recording a podcast. Best way to start any weekend, right? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (01:51.271) I couldn't agree more. absolutely. The energy from the podcast always carries me throughout the entire weekend, honestly. Lars Nielsen (01:53.644) Yeah. Lars Nielsen (01:58.298) And then you're fired up for the weekend. Maybe we should start doing this on Monday. So Paulina, we've heard a true story about a young woman driven to near burnout, then emotionally blackmailed when she tried to leave. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (02:02.096) Hmm, good idea. Lars Nielsen (02:23.372) What are the initial signs that someone is heading towards burnout? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (02:29.757) Okay. Once more, I think I'll say this in every single episode. I'm not a psychologist, but from my personal experience, from what I've seen, unfortunately I have seen burnout quite a lot. I've been there once myself and I've also seen it multiple times in friends and colleagues and even on team members. And there are multiple signs, but the first thing I usually have seen showing up is feeling overwhelmed, like not being able to focus anymore as well as they could be or used to be and then following a decline in performance. And people might experience sleep disturbances, irritability, you might see them react more emotionally or more aggressively to situations that they usually would have been very calm about. and a sense of detachment. if you look very closely, you can see that they will not be as passionate about their job anymore. Things will not matter to them anymore, or at least not as much as it used to be. And that's all before it slips into this chronic exhaustion. And also from what I've seen, people usually, if they are heading towards burnout, they don't really realize it themselves and they keep pushing themselves and they don't understand how truly exhausted they are. And usually they need someone from the outside, a loved one or a colleague or a manager to point that out or to actually see it happening because you're just so much in your own fog that... you don't want to realize it or you just can't realize it up to a certain point and usually by the point you do realize it yourself it's very far, far it progressed already. Lars Nielsen (04:31.758) Yeah, I can speak for myself that for me, a typical sign of starting to be burned out is that I get so easily irritated about small stuff. And sometimes actually stuff that I usually like to see in other people. So for me, and I've learned this over time, that once I get to that point, I need to pull the plug. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (04:45.245) Mm. Yeah. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (04:51.583) Yeah. Yeah, that's a very good point. Lars Nielsen (05:01.78) and trying to do that. But it's not always easy. OK, like I started saying, Paulina, this is a true story, again, like a true story that we got approached by. And thank you to everybody that are willing to share the stories on the podcast. We really appreciate that. Tell us the story, Paulina. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (05:04.05) Yeah, don't let it get us. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (05:28.497) Yes. so also from my side, Katarina, thank you so much for sharing the story for trusting in us and for being that vulnerable because, honestly, I've heard a lot of, bad workplace stories, but your story, Katarina really moved me quite a bit because I think it's, it is something that happens quite a lot out there that is not talked about enough. And it really shocked me to my core that somebody would approach you that in that way. But let's head into the story. So Katarina had this job, it was one of the first jobs and actually her first real office job, so to say. And so she was she was still very young. It's been a couple of years ago. And it was a very high pressure work environment where she was working. So there were long hours. there was no clear regulation in her work contract already, how things would be dealt with with overtime. So she worked a lot and not only did she work a lot, but there was always constant pressure in terms of the goals that they had to achieve. And the goals were extremely high stacked. They had to Yeah, basically work around the clock in an environment where people wouldn't would also not treat them very nicely, both on the customer side and on the internal side. So it was like, ding, ding, ding, ding, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, never stop, never stop, never stop this kind of situation, which in and by itself already is obviously challenging. And she realized about 18 months into this job. that she was actually not being able to, to deal with the workload anymore. And I mean, I don't want to go into too much details because that might give too much away from a backstory. But from what she told me, they were only three people in the team and the workload they had was basically enough for five or six people. And she and another colleague approached her manager and they told her that Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (07:50.509) they needed support in order to handle this kind of workload and actually deliver the projects and the, and the, the, the customer projects all on time and in the quality that was expected. And they kept being like pushed out like, yeah, I completely understand that this is a problem. I'll take care of it. But nothing ever happened. Nothing ever happened. And in the meantime, they just kept pushing and pushing and pushing. And she, Katarina reached a point where she just. had to call in sick because she couldn't do it anymore. And then she went to see the doctor, called in sick for a week, which isn't a long time to call in sick, but in that kind of working environment already being sick for one single day was seen as a sign of a huge weakness. And so she felt really nervous about being out sick this long and that in itself already is insane, right? You do call in sick and you feel bad about feeling sick. If you're really truly sick and you feel bad about being sick, that's huge red flag here. And she went back to the doctor after, after, after a week and asked him, and if she could, if you could write her healthy again, that's how you say it in German at least. Right. So he would allow her to go back to work. And even while she said that. Lars Nielsen (08:48.588) Yes. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (09:18.077) she started crying because she really didn't want to go back. And then the doctor, and she said, and I found this so beautiful how Katarina praised that she said he was a lifesaver in that moment because he actually told her, okay, I'm going to give you a notice for another notice certificate for being sick for three more weeks. If you go in today and quit your job. Because you do need to quit your job because otherwise you are heading straight into burnout. And she listened to him and a Katarina, I didn't say that to you when we had our conversation, but they were so amazingly strong. said at the beginning of the podcast, it's so hard to see it for yourself and where you're headed and that you actually understood that and had the gut and the stamina to stand up for yourself and take care of yourself. I love that for you, And so, Katarina being a good employee decided I will quit, but I will do it the right way. I will do it in person. I will hand over my notice to my manager directly. And I will also offer to do a proper handover, which I personally think is amazing. Yes, it is something that you usually do, but in that kind of situation, when you're basically heading into burnout and when you're in sick leave, that's nothing I would expect from an from an employee. so that's exactly what she did. She went into the office. And here's where the real fun begins. Lars Nielsen (10:54.762) Let's just agree when you say fun, this is a podcast where people can see it. This is in quotation marks, right? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (10:57.467) Yeah, that's true. That is a very, very fat big quotation marks because this is where where, okay, I'll rephrase it. This is where shit really hit the fan. Lars Nielsen (11:03.927) Yes, please. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (11:11.315) So Katarina hands in her notice and her manager pulled like this three step emotional blackmail, personal attack, guilt trip, super storm of shit on her that I found really, I was absolutely flabbergasted. So step number one was to tell her. How can you do this? You're leaving us alone. You're leaving us hanging. That's so unfair of you. That's not how a good team member actually reacts. You know the kind of workload that we have and you're just leaving us hanging with all of that. How are we supposed to do it without you? And good for you, Katarina. You stay strong. So the next step that her manager pulled then was to actually tell her that If you can't handle the work pressure here, then you will never be successful anywhere because we are actually not that much of a competitive environment. And if you are so weak and can't deal with this kind of normal workload, then you're basically, I'm paraphrasing now, you're basically screwed out in the, in the real world. those two steps alone are already insane, right? I mean, how can you... honestly talk to somebody who's clearly not well in such a manner. It's beyond me. It's absolutely beyond me. But the... Asshole manager, I'll just put it out there, went even a step further because then when Katarina did the, actually did the handover in the office, her manager walked around, talked to the other colleagues and told the other colleagues what a weakling Katarina was and that she just wasn't cut out to make it, to hack it in this high pressure, wonderful work environment. And that really Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (13:18.109) Yeah, that really blew my fuse. Just talking to other colleagues about a personal situation is a no-go per se. And then to badmouth somebody is not only bad for Katarina, obviously, but it destroys everything in the entire team that still was, if there still was anything there. And for Katarina's shock, also some of the colleagues joined into this bad mouthing situation, which I can only imagine how difficult this must have been. yeah, so that's Katarina's story. But before we move on, I just quickly wanted to say, Katarina, I'm so amazed on how you handled that. You told me that you found a way out of your exhaustion. You found a way to also process what you've experienced. You don't feel resentment in any way. Don't let this, you haven't let this show through in your following work relationships in the sense that you still trust your manager. But what you've, no, no, no, but, what you've also beautifully learned is to look deeper at your employers before you actually joined there. You told me that you ask more questions about overtime. You asked more questions about the team structure. you try to get to know your manager better beforehand. And you also mentioned that before you joined that job, they told you in the interview that this was like a family situation where everything was like super, everybody was really close and so on and so forth. And for me, comparing a workplace to family has always been the biggest red flag I've ever seen in the workplace. Lars Nielsen (15:12.65) you Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (15:14.187) And I think from what I've heard, Katarina, is that you feel the same way nowadays. That you just, yeah, you look at the employer and try to assess how they work beforehand. And I'm so happy to share with all of you that Katarina is now in an employment and in a place where she's really happy and where she can take care of her wellbeing and enjoy her job and really perform really well. Lars Nielsen (15:41.644) That is a... I will say... Okay, I'm going to use the word shocking. That's a shocking story. But... And there is a but in here. It's not the first time we heard a story like this. And it's not going to be the last time we're going to hear a story like this. This is the truly shocking thing, right? That these stories just keep coming up over and over again. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (15:50.783) Mm-hmm. Lars Nielsen (16:08.782) And you keep asking yourself, are there that many shitty leaders out there? But the answer is yes. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (16:20.903) Yeah, and I mean, we've been down this discussion before, right? It's personal inability, it's lack of learning, it's lack of training, it's lack of self-reflection, of self-awareness. There are so many reasons for bad management and not all of them lie within the person itself. But this kind of behavior is just downright disgusting. Lars Nielsen (16:43.982) This one is close to being off the charts, right? That you do something. So in this case, the manner uses or used several tactics that were minimizing the employees' experience, threatening their future career, which is insane. And the third thing, is like, I think you said it yourself, it's probably the worst thing is public shaming. Can you try to break down these? Again, I'm going to put this in quotation marks. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (17:09.05) Mm-hmm. Lars Nielsen (17:13.954) tactics, why are they so damaging? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (17:18.089) Well, I mean, I guess it's quite obvious that these tactics are very, very damaging. All of them are classic examples of emotional manipulation. And minimizing someone's experience actually invalidates their feelings, which can in worst case scenarios feel like you questioning your own experience in the long run. And you're just not trusting. what you're seeing or what you're hearing because you start to think I'm misinterpreting situations. And so this basically just detaches you from your own intuition. The career threat creates a huge amount of fear. And especially if you're at the beginning of your career, Jesus, do you know what I'm just thinking at the moment? I'm thinking what if any manager listens to this and takes like notes on how to, if I want to do this, if I want to create fear, that's what I should do. Jesus. So no, this is not a how to do it. Lars Nielsen (18:25.358) Don't go down that route, Paulina. That's not why we're here. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (18:30.247) I know it went on here, but I just have this... Lars Nielsen (18:33.74) We also have to give credit to the good managers out there. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (18:37.137) Absolutely. I, and I hope, and yeah, maybe we'll try, we'll tell some good stories too in the long run. so yeah, but yeah, creating fear in the workplace never is a good idea because fear always, always, always will destroy your energy and your motivation. And in the long run, your performance, because nobody can actually function well in fear scenarios. And I've Lars Nielsen (18:43.233) Yes. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (19:07.091) detailed this down in the last episode in more so I'm not going to rant about it again. And public shaming obviously isolates and humiliates the individual and gives them the impression that they don't belong to the group, which in turn, recreates the sphere scenario in your, in your, ha ha ha, in your, your, in your old brain, you know, the, the brain that is responsible for making sure that you fight or flight. So, and the reptile brain, thanks. That was the word I was looking for the reptile brain. So, and then again, you are in a fear zone and you would also feel helpless and feel trapped. And that is just going to accelerate depression, burnout, all of that kind of shit. So to all the managers out there. Lars Nielsen (19:38.83) reptile. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (20:05.225) don't ever do it. Ever. Lars Nielsen (20:07.918) And you just mentioned here in the last part, Pauline, you mentioned some of the long-term effects that this could have on people. Again, for this specific story, we were very happy to hear that she moved on and everything is as okay as it can be because it should never have been happening. But what could be the long-term effects of stuff like this? Because it can have severe long-term effects, right? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (20:13.535) Mm. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (20:35.955) Yeah, absolutely. So long-term exposure to this kind of negative stress can lead to severe mental and physical health issues that can include anxiety, depression, or even cardiovascular problems. It will definitely have an impact on your sleep. And if you don't sleep well, basically, I mean, I've been there. If you don't sleep, it's torture. Every mum out there knows it. So yeah. And if, if, if, if your work situation contributes to any of that, obviously that's not healthy. And on top of all of that, on the physical and mental stress, it erodes trust with not just for you, but for the entire team. and it creates a toxic work environment. Everybody will be able to tell that this is not right and they will all try to avoid feeling that same way for themselves. And that's also, from my perspective, why Katarina's colleague threw her under the bus at the end of this public shaming as well, because she just wanted to be very clear to her manager. I agree with you. I agree with you. And I'm not like that. I'm here to stay or whatever. not a healthy response, but an understandable response. yeah, because she, she tried to be on the, on the safe side with the manager and not become publicly shamed herself. So she retreated onto the bedside and I can very well imagine that Katarina's colleague feels really bad about this today for, for, for acting that way, but it is. Lars Nielsen (22:16.558) Should we, should? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (22:28.423) it is an understandable reaction in the situation. Lars Nielsen (22:32.791) Should we draw a direct parallel to today's political climate, to what is, I'm not going to mention any names, but there's a big bully who kind of uses their power to get everybody to chime in and say like, yeah, that's a great idea. Let's do it. And everybody's afraid of speaking up, Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (22:43.849) Just one? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (22:55.955) Yeah, I think that's a very fair assessment and a very fair parallel. I think there are a lot of big bullies out there at the moment and it's shocking to see how many people comply with that. very scary to be honest, but I also see counter movements, people who do speak up, people who become very outspoken about it, people who are Lars Nielsen (23:10.542) Mm-hmm. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (23:26.343) And you see that in, to not go into huge political rant here, I see that happening in work environments as well, right? You will see people who act up against this kind of behavior. And unfortunately in the work environment, if it's... If it's intrinsic, like if the entire company works this way, then most likely you will end up leaving or getting fired if you speak up against this, which is to say, please do, please speak up against it. You have to speak up about it because it can also work the other way. in one of my, in my old jobs, we also have the situation with one specific manager who like was Lars Nielsen (23:59.604) Yeah, you don't want to work there anymore, right? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (24:17.629) a shit show chauvinist and people spoke up and it took a long time, but at the end of the day, measures were taken and he lost his job. And I think that's a really good sign that it is important to speak up and that you are not powerless because if you do speak up to the right people and you have, mean, you will always have the right to say it. But more often than not, you will also see an effect of it and good things coming out of actually speaking up. So I want to, I want to, I want to make sure that people understand the risks if they do it, but also the rewards that can happen. And honestly, if you are in that kind of environment and it affects you deeply because you're a good person, not because you're weak, let me be very clear about that as well. Lars Nielsen (24:54.85) I... I... Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (25:16.591) they do fire you? I mean obviously that's a shitty situation at the beginning but do you honestly really want to stay in that kind of environment? I doubt it. I wouldn't want to stay there. Lars Nielsen (25:29.132) I'm just looking here. I'm just doing a quick Google search here. Because when we talked about this and you say like there's a coming a counter movement to everything, which also like, again, one thing is the political climate, but also what will happen on the workplace and so on. I think it's the law of physics that says for any action you have a reaction. Right. So I think it's just very common that that... Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (25:54.312) Yes. Lars Nielsen (25:58.638) that every time somebody is going to be the bully and just going to like pushes you and pushes you at some point, somebody is going to give a reaction to that. And I think it's, I don't want to be too physical on the show here, but I think it's just kind of the how life balances. That's makes life balanced because there's always going to be a reaction to something toxic, right? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (26:17.695) philosophical. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (26:28.861) Absolutely. that will be my last political comment for today. There is a reason why most dictators are tumbled from inside. Because dictators usually create their worst enemies themselves. And the same goes in the workplace. So let's rant over. Or it becomes the next project. Who knows? Lars Nielsen (26:33.198) for today. Lars Nielsen (26:40.577) Yeah, yeah, of course. Lars Nielsen (26:48.736) Ran over. This is not a political podcast. It might turn into be one at some point, but let's see. Paulina, let's move on. As always, we are running out of time. In this case, back to the story. If you have three tips to our listeners to avoid burnouts, what would they be? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (27:11.603) continuously to prioritize self care, especially if you're in a high, in high pressure environment. So make sure that you get adequate sleep, eat healthy and exercise. know this is kind of very obvious, but I can't, it's just the most, it's just the best prevention tactic out there just to, really focus that you get rest and especially coming from sales. I can highly recommend meditation breathing exercises that helps a lot to just to regulate your emotions and your energy. And then I know this is easier said and done, especially for those of us working from home, set clear boundaries between work and personal life. And lastly, seek support from trusted colleagues and friends, loved ones. And if you do realize that you're slipping down a slippery slope, don't be shy to reach out to professionals because they do know what will help in your specific situation. Lars Nielsen (28:20.238) 100%. I agree 100%. And finally, what should a person do if they find themselves in a similar situation as the story just told? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (28:32.22) Okay. I think first of all, it's important to recognize if you're experiencing exhaustion because of overwork or if this overwork stems from an actually unhealthy environment, work environment, because of course burnout or exhaustion can also develop from a personal situation at home or even within a very healthy culture. Right? So not always burnout is a sign for bad culture. But if the reasons are to be found within your culture, I can only recommend to document those kinds of such pressure situations. Even also messages that you get from your managers and talk to HR if possible, potentially seek legal advice. And especially for the listeners in Germany, one of my favorite advices have insurance for labor law. They are not super expensive and they can help a lot. Just a quick side note and potentially cool and sick rather sooner than later. Because if it's early stage, just one or two weeks off can still do you a world of good. Whereas, I mean, I've seen burnout cases where where team members, where colleagues and team members left the company for nine months and they, and it took them really long time to get back into it. listen to your body, listen to it and, and make sure that you get enough rest as quickly as possible. And again, we said this before, leaving a toxic environment is most of the time the healthiest option and the best thing you can do for your, for your mental health. Even though I do know this is not an easy choice for everyone. Yeah, I think that's it from my end for today. Lars Nielsen (30:38.222) Perfect. So just to sum it up here, so burnout as it is today's topic is a very serious issue and recognizing the signs which we have gone over is very crucial. I can only encourage everybody to remember that your health and well-being are paramount. Don't let anyone minimize your experience or manipulate you into staying in a toxic environment. I think we can agree on that, right? Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (31:09.693) Yes, absolutely. And yeah, if you Lars Nielsen (31:11.874) Perfect. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (31:19.495) if you experience that kind of thing. I can only really recommend if you're being manipulated or harassed or publicly shamed, please, please, please make sure to get professional help. This can have so bad long-term effects. So yeah, just cannot recommend that enough. Lars Nielsen (31:46.306) Thank you Paulina, thank you very much for sharing the story and also giving you your insights into what can you actually do. To all the listeners out there, you can follow Paulina on the Culture Co Foundation. We'll leave a link in the show notes, also to both her and my social channels. So if you have anything you want to share on the show. Just reach out, we will keep everything as anonymous as you want. If you want to come on the show, we will be happy to have you and talk about how can we avoid culture from hell. Thank you very much. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (32:26.985) Thank you Lars. Lars Nielsen (32:28.214) You're welcome. Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (32:30.099) Thank you all of you out there. See you next week. Lars Nielsen (32:34.53) See you next week.