Episode Transcript
Lars Nielsen (00:01.354)
Welcome back to yet another episode of Cultures From Hell. This is the podcast that tackles the less flattening aspects of workplace culture. I'm your host Lars. And today we're diving into a topic that most of us have probably encountered in one way or another, gossip in the workplace. It's a phenomenon.
that can affect trust, morale, and ultimately productivity. Joining me today, as always in our show, is our resident expert and co-host, Paulina from College of Co-Foundation. Paulina, welcome back.
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (00:50.8)
Thank you Lars. As always, great to see you.
Lars Nielsen (00:52.502)
I need to... Yeah, likewise. You need to find a company name that I can actually pronounce,
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (01:02.968)
Sorry, I'm not going to rebrand. Yes, really. But you can shorten it into CCF.
Lars Nielsen (01:05.496)
Really?
Lars Nielsen (01:10.21)
Hey, I'm going to do that next time. This is Paulina from CCF. Paulina, as always in our shows, we are talking about gossip in the workplace and we start out with the basics. What exactly is gossip in a workplace context and why do you think it's so prevalent?
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (01:36.41)
Well, so first of all, gossip in the workplace is extremely common. I would actually say in one way or another, it happens almost everywhere. This has to do with the fact that we humans are communicative beings and that we define ourselves by belonging to a group. And gossip can create a very important false sense of belonging by excluding others, AKA the people that we do gossip about.
And it's so important to say it's a false sense of belonging because if people get excluded by gossip, that automatically does drive the fear that I might be next if I don't fit perfectly. And that in turn leads to fear of doing things differently, which then again, stifles innovation and productive discourse, effectively killing any diversity of thought or action you might have within your team.
It has a huge impact on the business side of things. And of course, also becomes seriously problematic for mental health, especially if gossip is hurting people personally, or when it is designed, and that happens more often than we believe, to undermine careers intentionally.
Lars Nielsen (02:58.356)
And like you said, it probably, or I wouldn't say probably, it happens in any workplace one way or the other. I think we have all been there. I think we have all been part of gossip, either on one of the sites that happens. And we also all know that it can be extremely toxic to any workplace.
So we received a rather thought-provoking story about gossip in an HR department where an employee is constantly asked about the performance of others and management even tries to, and hold on to this one, even tries to take advantage of a relaxed atmosphere to gather information. What is your thoughts on such a situation?
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (03:53.86)
Well, let me quickly recap the story for all of our listeners out there. So this is the story of Claudia and Claudia actually was asked by the head of people and culture in her business, what she was thinking about other colleagues, even colleagues in the people, yeah, HR department. So her direct coworkers. So, and Claudia was actually
asked continuously if she thinks that people are loyal to the business and if they are doing a good enough job in their specific line of work. And she was asked that about not just her direct coworkers, but about people across the business. And Claudia reported that she over time figured out that this was a pattern from this head of people in culture, because she would, this people of culture.
No, this.
head of people in culture would ask multiple people these exact same questions. And what Claudia found most disturbing was that the manager actually went around at company events when people were drunk or buzzed and asking those exact same questions at these events, because she was hoping that people had their guard down.
And because of the alcohol and would be more open to share stories or potentially even dish out the dirt on people and not just talk about their performance or loyalty. Right? So this is Claudia's story. And especially the part of about interrogating colleagues in a relaxed and less guarded situation is from my perspective, extremely harmful behavior.
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (05:54.704)
From my experience, if you have senior leadership, actually driving gossiping situation is once more a sign of really bad leadership culture, at least it doesn't necessarily have to boil down to the entire company culture, but the leadership culture for that specific person is really, really bad and can be sign of inexperience, can be a sign of lack of control, can be a sign of
own anxiety, because they might need to know more about other colleagues just to protect themselves. But just doesn't sit well with me anyway, because it also it like it feels like you're, you're trying to take advantage of people. I hate it. Right. So if I very, very strongly believe that leaders should do whatever they can.
to actually address any gossip within a company and to help the team see how harmful this kind of behavior is. if on the other hand, just like in Claudia's story, they actually exemplify gossiping, they normalize that it is okay to spread stories and even lies about your colleagues.
Lars Nielsen (07:17.138)
And I think this raises some important questions about trust and psychological safety. How does widespread gossip generally affect the culture within a company?
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (07:30.882)
Yeah. I mean, you, basically said it right. So it does undermine trust. creates insecurity and that over time will lead to poorer collaboration and lower engagement. And that is come, it always, our discussion so often come down to trust in psychological safety. At the end of the day, those are the two cornerstones of a healthy company culture. And if you actively undermine those.
two pillars, then things will crumble around you. So you might also see higher turnover rate or also a higher burnout rate since constantly being on alert around your own colleagues is a real pressure cooker.
Lars Nielsen (08:18.774)
And like I said before, I think we have all been there. I think we've all experienced a situation like this. And if you as an employee are in a company where you feel there's a lot of gossip in the workplace, what are three things that are important to keep in mind or do?
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (08:36.634)
Mm.
Lars Nielsen (08:47.668)
If I, let's, let's, I'm going to cut that out.
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (08:53.136)
You
Lars Nielsen (08:56.546)
So like I said before, I think we have all been in a workplace where gossip has been going on to some extent. And if you as an employee feels that there's a lot of gossip going on, what are three things that are important to keep in mind or do?
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (09:17.22)
I need to do a quick stop here. need to run to the door. Sorry.
Lars Nielsen (09:21.006)
Yeah
In three, two, one. Like I said earlier, I think we have all been there. I think we have all been in a workplace where we have experienced gossip to some extent. don't think that anybody can say that they've never tried it. So if you, as an employee, you feel that there's a lot of gossip going on in your workplace, what are three things that are important to keep in mind or
to do.
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (09:54.594)
Mm-hmm. So before, before I go into, into concrete advice here, let me just say there is obviously very, very different levels of gossip, right? So not all gossip is like super detrimental and is going to destroy your business. There are small gossip things that I think, are not a really bad thing, but as soon as comes into talking about people in the background, on the one hand.
This is what becomes super helpful for the mental health thing. And the other, the other kind of really bad gossip or rumors is when you start spreading rumors about the business itself, like, we're going to fail. The product is not just, it's just not going to perform. They're going to be layoffs, et cetera, et cetera, because that also creates huge insecurities, huge amount of fear, et cetera. So there are.
very, very different levels of harmful, got harmfulness when it comes to gossip. And I don't want to address like the first part of it, but I want to like the small, less harmful things, but I would definitely recommend in general, try to stay away away from gossip as much as you possibly can. so coming back to the direct concrete to do's.
that you can change. So first of all, can, you personally, can start with a one day gossip fast. So just really tell yourself, tell yourself, I'm not gonna gossip at all myself for one day. And after doing that, and you see yourself gossiping again after that, really feel into the aftertaste of that gossip.
really let it sink in that it's not a good feeling actually to gossip about other people. You, they would always be a little bit of you that realizes that that is not a good thing to do and that it's not fair towards others and that you would hate if others would do the same to you. Right? So that would be like the first level of how you can detach yourself from gossiping.
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (12:16.932)
The second step, has already quite progressed is, love that, Become the place where gossip comes to die. So tell people that come to you to share gossip with you. Just tell them, I don't have any opinion on that whatsoever. Period. You can add, I care about you, but I really don't care about getting involved in any gossip.
So you can just leave it out there, right? And if you want to take that to the pro level, you can actually try to change other people's mind about involving themselves in gossip. And for that, you could ask them, how can I help you formulate these thoughts that you're having, that you want to share, that you're sharing with me in a way so that you can address the person it concerns directly?
Lars Nielsen (13:17.538)
I absolutely love that term. Become the place where gossip comes to die. I love it. I'm going to put a mental pin in that one. I want to be that person. I really want to be that person that kind of sucks it up and just spits it out again. Like, is it where it comes to die? Perfect. Thank you for giving concrete advice. I love it when we on the show can like...
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (13:26.584)
You
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (13:34.372)
Yeah.
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (13:38.256)
Yeah.
Lars Nielsen (13:46.99)
put like, say like, this is concrete advice, how to improve workplace culture. This is the essence of the podcast, right?
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (13:55.66)
Exactly. And with this topic, I mean, the last, last week's episode, we didn't have the most applicable advice for individual contributors or individuals generally speaking, and more, more so towards the leadership side of things. And I personally love it if I can give real advice to every individual within the company so that they feel less powerless, that they have the feeling that they can
actually influence their workplace culture. And when it comes to gossip, this is actually down to every single person in a business. And it is really, really easy to change something about this topic from your own personal perspective. And I love that.
Lars Nielsen (14:40.206)
Speaking of that, now we have given advice from the employee side of things. But from a management perspective, what concrete steps can they take to minimize gossip and create a more open and trusting communication culture?
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (14:58.264)
Yeah. Thank you, for bring, for bringing that up as well. I mean, obviously every leader or executive can also follow the steps that I've mentioned before, but they can obviously also take it to a completely different level by addressing gossiping head on, for example, by saying, we don't want anyone in this business, or I don't want anybody in my team participating in gossip. And if you do have any issues you want to discuss, or you think are
important to bring forward. First of all, try taking it up with a person that actually concerns it or come to me so we can address these concerns together. Because that also effectively stops people from running around talking to 15, 16, 17 people about the same, same thing, or at least offers them a way to do it differently. This is
especially important in situation where there is a transformation going on within your business. So that people feel also safe to bring their concerns forward or say either transformation or a specifically toxic leadership situation going on. Because in those kinds of situations, rumors and gossip usually run wild and you want to get ahead of those things, right? You want to be the one that people address these topics to and you don't want to
have this negative influence of the gossiping situation going on. If it just, yeah, if everyone just runs their mouths off to each other. So you want to be the person that people come to, before they start spreading rumors and gossip. And obviously like always, it is just important to follow through, meaning take people aside that continues spreading rumors and gossip and
address that topic head on with them. Don't just say we're not going to do it, but then accepting that people still do it. You have to follow through.
Lars Nielsen (17:04.92)
Yes, take them aside. Don't be afraid of speaking up. And then again, be that person where rumors or gossip comes to die, right? Yes. Paulina, based on your experience, what is a popular myth about workplace gossip that you'd like to debunk here on the show?
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (17:16.164)
Yes, that's the one!
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (17:26.244)
Well, in terms of the topic we're discussing today, I would like to debunk the idea that gossip is needed as social glue in a company. Most of the time, gossip and rumor is harmful. It is hurting people personally, or it can even destroy careers if things go really out of hand.
But since gossip is often a sign of people feeling insecure and in times of great change, rumors and gossip are just very widespread. So those times specifically should be used to address topics transparently and openly to reduce the fear that then leads to the gossip and the rumors.
Lars Nielsen (18:16.27)
We have often talked about on the show that we are learning from our mistakes, right? So that's why we are so wise because of all the mistakes we have done in our past.
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (18:25.336)
if we're doing it right.
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (18:34.032)
But I like that perspective, Lars. We have failed ourselves to wisdom.
Lars Nielsen (18:39.458)
greatness. We have failed our way to greatness.
But with that in mind, can you share a mistake you've seen companies make in handling gossip that in retrospect has been an important lesson?
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (18:57.188)
Yes, it actually comes down to the topic that I've just mentioned, like in times of turmoil or change. One of my employers actually went through such a time of transformation and there were rumors about layoffs and which departments would be hit hardest and that we basically were about to fail economically in the grand scheme of things.
And, then we had our town hall and the sea level just said, stop the gossiping. It's not helping anyone. Just stop it. So they basically, they, did part of it, right? So they addressed that there were rumors. They addressed that they didn't want to see that anymore, but what they were lacking was the second super important part when it comes about gossip.
offering safe space on where to address your concerns. So they didn't address the rumors that they had, that had already been spread. They didn't debunk those rumors. They didn't share transparent information that would help people feel more secure or give them space to vent. And so basically was just a top-down order. Just shut the F up.
and don't bother us with it anymore. And the effect of that way of handling the gossiping situation was actually the total opposite of what they had wanted to achieve because people ran their mouths off even worse than before. And the rumor mill was just spitting out new things every other second. And it became so much harder for the team leaders and managers to actually
Yeah, get this into, into a healthy discussion. Get it moved into a healthy discussion. And most of us, most of us leaders failed in doing so because the trust was eroded so badly to the upper management that then the employees were just thinking like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now this is just being said to like, keep us calm and whatnot. So completely backfired.
Lars Nielsen (21:19.308)
And I just want to underline what you said before, the thing about like, offer people a safe space to vent out all your questions or all your concerns and being transparent. Because like you said, like it's perfectly okay for leaders to say, we need to stop the gossip and the rumors that's going on. But at the same time, they need to address it and say like, this is the truth. This is what's going on.
Speaking the truth or speaking or addressing the gossip actually helps killing the gossip, right? Because then there's no more gossip to spread around.
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (21:54.774)
Exactly.
Lars Nielsen (22:00.28)
Paulina, as always on our shows or on our podcast, time just keeps flying. So we need to wrap this up. So please summarize what we have talked about today.
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (22:13.144)
Yes. And thank you so much for this really important and good conversation around the topic of gossip and rumors. We have looked at how gossip can poise in the work environment, how it can undermine trust and ultimately harm both the people and the business itself. So the key takeaways today are probably the importance of transparent communication when it comes to rumors.
clear guidelines regarding behavior and that every employee not only has a responsibility, but also the ability to contribute to a culture where there is less gossip, less rumors going around by simply not participating in gossip. And Laris, I'll cite your favorite quote, by becoming the place where gossip comes to die.
Lars Nielsen (23:13.23)
Thank you everybody who's listening to our show. And if you as a listener want to delve even deeper into topics like workplace culture and positive environments, please go follow Paulina and Culture Code Foundation on their website. We will leave all the links to the website, social media and so on in the show notes. So thank you very much for tuning into Cultures from Hell. Join us next time as we explore another.
fascinating aspect of workplace dynamics. Until then, take care and cultivate a culture of growth. Not blame.
Paulina von Mirbach-Benz (23:54.298)
Thank you, Lars. And to all of you out there, we'll see you next week.
